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HomeAircraftHelicopterThunder TigerRAPTOR 50 › Raptor 50 Main Spur Gear Wareing UnEven
02-04-2008 06:14 PM  10 years agoPost 1
zac123

rrApprentice

Northern New Jersey,USA

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I just noticed wile cleaning the ship up this Sunday night a white powder around Main Spur Gear. It is grindings from the Spur Gear. Looking at the gear from the side I can see that from about center of the gear to the top ( it's only .300 wide ) it's worn on an angle as if it and the Drive Gear Pinion were not matched correct.I pulled out the drive gear pinion and shaft and it all looks in good shape.I reassembled it all and they seem to be even to each other but evidently not because of the ware. Is there some kind of angle adjustment between the both to keep this from happening? I'm trying to find a good parts brake down for this ship for ordering parts.

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02-04-2008 06:33 PM  10 years agoPost 2
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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Possible bearing issue on your upper or lower pinion bearing (clutch/starter shaft) area.

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-04-2008 07:02 PM  10 years agoPost 3
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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Pull the clutch bell and see if the pinion bearing wore a groove in the pinion and is floating free.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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02-04-2008 07:04 PM  10 years agoPost 4
zac123

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Northern New Jersey,USA

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I did pull the clutch bell and removed the shaft also. The bearings are tight in there housing and the shaft seems to be tight through the bearings.

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02-04-2008 07:54 PM  10 years agoPost 5
jsenicka

rrProfessor

Eagle River, WI

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I had gear wear when my bearings wore as BarracudaHockey mentions. The lower bearing was sloppy on the pinion

Jim Senicka
Team Manager, GrandRC Flight Team

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02-04-2008 08:03 PM  10 years agoPost 6
MartyH

rrProfessor

USA

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If you spun a bearing in its bore, it can feel tight by hand but be off center and allowing odd gear wear. When a bearing spins in its bore it'll heatup and spin weld the bearing to the frame plastic. I had to replace a Raptor 30 frameset because of this. It was fun getting the two halves apart too as they fused together a little.

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02-05-2008 03:55 AM  10 years agoPost 7
zac123

rrApprentice

Northern New Jersey,USA

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Hey guys, thanks for responding. I will look again at all of that. I allready have another stock main gear and drive pinion gear to put in. I have to figure out what is causing the ware before i put them in though or it's only going to happen again. I'm going to see the previous owner and builder of the ship Tuesday night to look for answers.
I have posted pictures to my Gallery tonight. In my gallery are 3 close-up pictures of the problem. PLEASE look for them and see what ya all think about it and see if you have ever seen anything like it before. I would have added them to this post but i can't figure out how to do it. I will keep an eye out here for any one with any ideas. Now its off to the hanger, work comes very early in the AM. I am on line all day from work so I will check back Tuesday often. Thanks. Things were just starting to go well, figure 8s were comming back to me very fast and with great confidence and I was feeling like I was ready to hit the big blue skys but now it's back to more problems.

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02-05-2008 04:31 AM  10 years agoPost 8
HotsHabit

rrVeteran

Idaho

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You definitely have a problem there. I would check the main shaft bearings, kinda looks like bad bearings or worn bearing slot in the frames, belt being run too tight maybe?

You said you checked the pinion bearing and it was fine, how about the fit of the bearing on the pinion? Something is moving to wear that gear that way.

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02-05-2008 07:09 AM  10 years agoPost 9
S Bell

rrApprentice

Nova Scotia Canada

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It could be you have damaged pinion teeth. If you put in a new main gear with normal backlash but still make plastic powder it may be worth considering. The gear should freewheel backwards smoothly.

Stephen

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02-05-2008 10:35 AM  10 years agoPost 10
PietervA

rrVeteran

New Zealand

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May we assume your mainshaft doesn't ride up-and-down in the main bearings? Is the main gear snugly tightened on the one-way. Overtightening can distort the plastic, and if too loose, the gear rocks. Lastly, an occasional main gear is not moulded uniformly.

If none of the above, go with BH, Stephen & co.

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02-05-2008 12:39 PM  10 years agoPost 11
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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I would resign yourself that you are going to have to split the frames and look at all the bearings and make sure its put together correctly and that the bearing seats aren't wallowed out.

To add a gallery picture to your post, in the new post box you will see a light blue box to your left that says MY GALLERY click the MY GALLERY link that will open your gallery in a new window.

If you hover your mouse over the pictures and move the mouse slightly below the picture you want you will see a grey area appear and a dialog that says ADD TO PHOTO CACHE click all the pictures you want to add then close that window. When you come back to the main post click PREVIEW then SUBMIT

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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02-07-2008 03:51 AM  10 years agoPost 12
zac123

rrApprentice

Northern New Jersey,USA

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Well it took some time to go over everything you guys mentioned. All the shafts,bearings and the pinion gear looks good. "One of you mentioned something that struck home tonight though" to that in moment.
Last night I went to see the shop heli man. He took one look and 5 seconds to tell me the engine needs to be shimed in it's mounting bracket that is attached to the frame. He reminded me that I was not having this problem untill I installed a new engine. ( same engine exactly though )
I installed a new pinion gear and spur gear and bearings for clutch bell. I went back to stock spur gear and its matching pinion gear from the hop-up set that was originally in there to give it more rotor speed and tourque. I checked back lash, mesh and alighnment and it all looks great without shiming anything. There is a way that you can look closely at the gear teeth as you rotate them and look at the mesh for any type of off angle alighnment and I did not see anything funny.
Now it was asked if my tail drive belt was to tight; That is an interesting question ! I was concerned that I did not get the belt as tight as it was before I took it apart last night to change the gears. Thinking about it, that belt was a heck of a lot tighter before I took it apart and put it back together with the new gears. I can now visualize how the belt would pull hard on the Tail drive Pulley if to tight tipping the top of the spur gear hard into the pinion gear and causing the top to the spur gear to ware like it did. That ware can be seen in my gallery. " I Say BINGO " Finding nothing else worn and not knowing for sure if the original engine had any kind of miss alighnment to it, I can only say there was a probibility that the belt was tight and when I put in the new engine there was just enough of gear alighnment change to make this ware happen. Now for the important question--- How do I judge propper tension on that tail drive belt??
I need to know how to do this right before I take her out again. Please teach me.

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02-07-2008 04:49 AM  10 years agoPost 13
HotsHabit

rrVeteran

Idaho

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If you are flying in the cold your belt will be loose when you take it from the house to the outside due to the tailboom shrinking in the cold weather.

The most common way to set the belt tension correctly is to hang onto the tailboom and let the weight of the heli pull the belt tight, then tighten up the 4 bolts and the boom supports. I would do this outside after the heli has had a few minutes to absorb the cold air.

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02-10-2008 09:26 PM  10 years agoPost 14
zac123

rrApprentice

Northern New Jersey,USA

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Now for what I hope is the final up-date on this issue.
The weather finally cleared enough for some quality pratice but as before there was grey gear powder around the clutch bell and inner housing. It was only a 10 minute flight but enough to see the teeth on the spur gear now had the begining of flatening out on the teeth points. I carefully looked at it and decided that since this time it was an even ware I needed to shim the whole engine out evenly from its mount.
My buddy had spare Blade-400 parts from the rotor head in his box.They were very thin washers just the right size to fit my engine mount capheads. I did not have my caliper but I would guess the shims were only 10 to .015 thick. I put them on and took another flight and this time there was no grinding and no ware visible. It stayed that way for another 3 tanks so I think the problem is now solved. The bearings above the clutch bell and in it, combined with the shims seems to have worked.
Im my attempts to try anything to fix the problem I took some of the super tight tension off of the tail rotor drive belt but that did help. Tightening it back the way it was sugessted to me only gave me tons of belt slap in the tail boom. I tightened the belt more and still have tail belt slap so now I need to look at this issue and figure out the propper way to judge the correct tension on the belt.
At least now the major problem seems to be fixed and I'm happy for that. Today is windy,cold with snow flurrys so I'm grounded for now. I think I'm going to put on my carbon Fiber mains and carbon fiber tail rotors and my blue paddles and wait for the next weather break to see how she flys with those on. Thanks for the help guys and any ideas on how to get the belt tension correct to stop the slap would be appreciated.

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02-11-2008 04:16 PM  10 years agoPost 15
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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You shouldn't have to shim anything to mount the motor unless its a TT and even then you'd tear up your clutch bell or clutch, I doubt you'd get gear dust.

What gears are you running? Both the main and pinion from the 8.5 set or both the main and pinion from the 8.7 optional set?

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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02-11-2008 07:14 PM  10 years agoPost 16
redvtr1000

rrVeteran

covington, GA

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As far as the belt goes, I think the manual suggests 5mm of play.

Hard to guage that by sticking your finger in there but I had mine slapping around in the boom as well. I loosened the four bolts on the back of the frame and the two screws on the horizontal fin, then pull back on the boom. Stick your finger in at the front of the boom where the gear/pulleys are and feel the tension. You should be able to push on it and have it give a couple mm or so. Look at what 5mm looks like on a ruler, it's not that much. Just a bit of give on both sides.

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02-11-2008 08:01 PM  10 years agoPost 17
zac123

rrApprentice

Northern New Jersey,USA

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When I bought the ship it had the optional gear set in it. I was told that was put in for more rotor speed / tourque as the owner was doing 3D flying with it. I have a box full of spare parts, new and used and the bag for the optional gear set is P/N - PV0518 ( 96T/11T ) The engine that was in the ship was the OS-50 Hyper. There was no gear alighnment problems and all was fine. Then due to a series of misfortunate events the motor was dammaged and I replaced the engine with another OS-50 Hyper. The replacement was simple and quick. There was no play with the mounting capheads and it only bolted in one way with no room for alighnment adjustments. Then after two tanks I notices white gear dust and much ware on the spur gear. Since I had a new stock spur gear and matching pinion gear and bearings I replace it all. The first tank showed ware on the new spur gear as if it was mated to tight with the pinion gear. The points of each tooth on the spur gear were starting to flatten out, but evenly. I decided to shim out the engine as little as possible to avoid clutch and bell housing misalighnment. After that was done the problem went away. After a few tanks all was still fine. Last night I removed the engine to inspect the clutch and bell housing and all had n signs of anything funny. I spoke with the helie builder and one of his 3D compettor friends and they said sometimes a little shimming is needed and they have done it in the past. I will keep an eye on it all very closely after each flight to make sure it's OK. You can see pictures of the original ware problem I had with the gears in my gallery.
Right now I'm going to readjust my tail drive belt the was it was just explained to me one post up from here and wait for the weather to brake to try her out. Thanks for the reply.

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02-11-2008 08:23 PM  10 years agoPost 18
baddynergy

rrElite Veteran

sierra madre, ca- usa

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When you replaced your engine, did you dial indicate the hub and clutch assembly on the engine?? It kinda sounds like you have your clutch runout a little excessive and it is causing gear mesh problems. A hyper should not need shimming. When you shim the engine out, you do not have a straight line down through the center of the crank from the start shaft, which is critical for proper gear mesh.

**Unattended children will be givin a shot of espresso and a puppy**

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02-11-2008 08:47 PM  10 years agoPost 19
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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Well a few things. The optional gears give you less rotor rpm and more torque, for a given engine speed.

That aside.

Are you sure you didn't get the pinion and main gear mismatched? The main is pretty easy to tell, the grey gear is 85T and the opional one, I think its 96 but its white.

The pinion that goes with the grey 85t main is 10 teeth, count them and see.

The other thing is, when you undo the mounting bolts from the engine to the engine mount you should go through a simple procedure to ensure perfect alignment.

Loosely bolt the engine to the engine mount. Put the bolts that hold the motor mount into the frame without locktite and cinch them down. Now slowly tighten the 4 motor mount bolts while spinning the start shaft backwards with your finger. The moment you feel resistance increase back off that bolt and move to another, you should be able to get all 4 tight with very little resistance in the start shaft. When you are done remove the frame bolts one at a time and locktite them.

Once you have this done you can drop the motor and not worry about it.

My guess is you have the pinion and main gear mismatched.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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02-12-2008 01:29 AM  10 years agoPost 20
zac123

rrApprentice

Northern New Jersey,USA

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It took a wile throughout the day to recheck and test everythng that was mentioned to do here. Everything seems to check out ok. About the frame mount for the engine mount; there is no play what so ever in it.So when you bolt it into the helie frame you have no movement in it at all to change any alighnment. It is that solide of a fit. I was able to rig up a pointer at the clutch bell to look for any runout and was not able to see anything. I agree that dial indicateing it is the way to go but I had to make do with what I had at hand today. Everything is as free and smooth spinning as can be.
So now the next question is what is going to go bad next the way I have it set up. The shims are so very thin, but it was just enough to keep the pinion from pushing in to hard on the spur gear. Now it's all running even and smooth and no gear dust from any kind of missalighnment.
I readjusted the tail drive belt again and will see if i get any slap next run. Hopefully it will be ok this time around.
We have more snow-wind and cold on the way Tuesday but it may get into the low 40s on Saturday so that will be the next test day. Clearly this is not the area to live in for this hobby.

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