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02-06-2008 07:17 PM  10 years agoPost 21
ba board

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England

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What it says is: A helicopter MUST NEVER, UNDER ANY Circumstances, be flown or run up: with metal rotor blades.

I'd say that's fairly specific.
I don't see how you can ignore this rule at any BMFA club, let alone any BMFA run event.

Thought: IF you can't use them and you know you can't use them but you do and someone gets injured, can you claim that you were being negligent,or in point of fact, deliberately negligent, and still be covered by the insurance.....mmmmmmmm.
Isn't that the same as saying "yes, I knew I was not allowed to use them, but I ignored that, and in any case it doesn't matter 'cos I'm sill insured" I can see that working....NOT

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02-06-2008 08:02 PM  10 years agoPost 22
chopper jockey

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uk

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ba,
Thought: IF you can't use them and you know you can't use them but you do and someone gets injured, can you claim that you were being negligent,or in point of fact, deliberately negligent, and still be covered by the insurance.....mmmmmmmm.
Isn't that the same as saying "yes, I knew I was not allowed to use them, but I ignored that, and in any case it doesn't matter 'cos I'm sill insured" I can see that working....NOT
Although sensible, your thought is completely wrong. Apologies for going off topic.

this has been discussed previously here.

http://www.runryder.com/t308679p1/

How's your memory?

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02-06-2008 10:16 PM  10 years agoPost 23
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Re: M-Blades
I contacted a friend of mine who is on the tech commitee for helis, for the BMFA and he is going to raise the question at the next tech meeting in April.
He is also of the opinion that if properly operated, the meatl blades are no worse than the carbon ones we use now.
I shall be sending him as much detail as I can for this meeting.

modtron
Oxford UK

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02-06-2008 10:24 PM  10 years agoPost 24
ba board

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England

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CJ, my memory is as good as yours obviously because you are right we have had his converstaion before and twelve or more months later we are still not allowed to use metal blades at anything that has to do with the BMFA.
What you choose to use when you are out AP or at your own site is entirely up to you. Does your club up the road allow you to use metal blades?, do they know you MAY be using them on a BMFA site (if indeed you are)
My thought, as you put it, is wrong in your view only. I stand by what I said in the quoted forum. Rules or guidelines, it makes no difference when it comes to legislation.
I cannot see any Insurance company standing by you if you have been "deliberately negligent" and before anyone has a go, that is my opinion and until a court of law legislates it will remain my opinion.
There is a world of difference between being negligent or being deliberatly negligent.
And just to refresh the memory about legislation, there are codes, guides, guidelines, rules, recommendations, SIs, orders, instructions and advisories, SOs etc. Each and every one of them has a slightly different meaning and NO, its not quite as cut and dried as a lot of people would think.

I have no problem with using metal blades providing the people who supposedly "organise" our hobby approve it.

Modtron, that is entirely sensible and let us hope that it is reviewed with success.

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02-06-2008 11:41 PM  10 years agoPost 25
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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ba board

As much as I agree with you over the legislation etc, it is also worth noting that you do not have to be a member of the BMFA to fly a model in the UK.

This applies to all types of models, including turbine powered.

I am guessing that there are some people who choose not to even join the BMFA. You can also wonder if these people even have any insurance as not everyone flies at a recognised club field.

There are many loaners out there. Who knows what they get up to ?

modtron
Oxford UK

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02-07-2008 12:12 AM  10 years agoPost 26
chopper jockey

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uk

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ba,
the BMFA policy "Indemnifies" the insured up to £5,000,000. That means when you loose in court, the policy picks up the tab. That includes "fines", "Damages" and "legal fees". But you have to first LOOSE the case and negligence must be proved. Whether the incident was negligent or "deliberately" negligent will be immaterial as far as the cover is concerned. That's what an "Indemnity policy" is for, to cover incompitent idiots. Hopefully the rest of us will be lucky enough to never have to claim.
do they know you MAY be using them on a BMFA site (if indeed you are)
I am not aware of any BMFA flying sites in the SW of England, or anywhere else for that matter. Except the Nationals etc for a few days of the year.

One other thing, FYI a "rule" in legal terms is "Mandatory"
a "Guidline" is "Advisory".

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02-07-2008 12:42 AM  10 years agoPost 27
ba board

rrVeteran

England

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I am aware of the diffference between the two terms, I used them for most of my working life and they are not as specific as you make them out to be, and, just like the last time this was raised, I do not intend to debate definitions with you. I think you are splitting hairs about the use of the term BMFA site. I assumed you would know that to mean, in this context at least, any club where the insurance is provided by the BMFA. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my terminology. And being an ACE you must be aware of the BMFA site at Little Haldon, within the SW Area.
Perhaps an Insurance agent could answer this, but, for any Insurance to be valid there must be certain criteria that you must comply with in order for that policy to cover you. I cannot accept that it doesn't mater what you do......all you have to do is be proved negligent and they will pay out.

Finally, I do not believe the insurance to be as all encompassing as you make it out, in fact, although I can't actually find it, I am sure that one of the contributors of material to the BMFA news(I'm sure from the Leicester Office) stated that the use of "unaccepted" 2.4 sets might invalidate any insurance (not a quote), so not too sure what that has to do with negligence, of whatever type. If that is indeed a true and accurate statement then does that not imply that using something that is "not approved" then our Insurance is not as wonderful or as simple to understand and use as you perhaps imply, and from what I can gather from your post is that it really doesn't matter whether you comply with these "rules or guidelines or whatever" or not, you're still going to be insured. I really hope that this is not the case because it bodes ill for the sensible element.

Modtron, I could not agree more, what is a frightening thought is that there are many people who have bought these machines and are using them with limited knowledge and even worse, without any form of insurance, BUT how do you legislate against that?

Sorry to hijack this thread, and for the record I am not against metal blades. In fact they might be the best thing since sliced bread, especially if you don't trash them in a crash

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02-07-2008 03:42 AM  10 years agoPost 28
human213

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malibu

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Hi GWSM
Please see my link in the prior post, it gives you the pdf with all the sizes and technical specs...the owner is a friend, and an extraordinarily
talented manufacturer...these blades are actually acid etched to
get the thin profile that is just superb....you may order them directly...

I am running the 75 mm by 1100s...

best,

michael

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

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02-07-2008 04:37 PM  10 years agoPost 29
FCM

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Surrey, England

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I've finally got to look at the M-Blades web site and downloaded the Spec PDF file but cannot see any blade weight quoted. The 'shop' link takes you to E-Bay Germany. Anybody having any luck with order these blades yet?

Paul.

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02-07-2008 07:40 PM  10 years agoPost 30
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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I have some blades arriving next week, but they have taken many weeks from the point of when they were ordered.
I am happy to wait, as the product is superb and the weather is cr*p.

modtron
Oxford UK

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02-08-2008 12:49 AM  10 years agoPost 31
FCM

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Surrey, England

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That's interesting...how did you order them and how much are they costing you?

Paul.

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02-08-2008 03:37 PM  10 years agoPost 32
G-SWSMrrApprentice - Midlands, UK - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Hi All,

There still seems to be some confusion over these blades, IE specs and pricing and delivery etc.

I feel that it would be a fantastic idea if the manufacturers put up some other language icons on their web site, for example English, French, Dutch etc, as at the moment I am unable to read German, and some of the on-line translator web pages seem to get confused at some of the wording.

I also feel that it would help in the selling of these items if there were these choices available to consumers / customers, along with Prices, which Include Delivery etc.

I would like to know more about these blades, and I think that with the relative information I would probably buy some, but at the moment I don't know enough to make that decision.

This may be leading people to the conclusion that this company is only interested in selling these items in Germany, especially as the buying link goes straight to Ebay Germany, again with no translation alternative.

Many thanks.

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02-08-2008 03:41 PM  10 years agoPost 33
dazzaster

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right next door to hell

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perhaps the only reason its in one language is simply because most countries governing bodies in the sport of model flying dont allow the use of metal blades so no point in putting any translation in.

A.K.A 509

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02-08-2008 04:21 PM  10 years agoPost 34
G-SWSMrrApprentice - Midlands, UK - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

you might have a point there.

I have just received this email response from the BMFA, which is as follows.
Dear Stephen

Thank you for your Email in relation to the use of metal rotor blades.

I have done a little research on this subject in order to clarify the reasons behind the information contained in the BMFA Handbook.

The ruling on metal propellers and metal helicopter blades is several years old and aligns with the FAI Sporting Code but appears to still be valid.

The main reasoning I suspect is related to “fatigue”.

In wood or composite blades it is generally easy to see if there is damage such as de-lamination or stress fracture, however in metal blades (as with full-size aircraft) it is possible for them to suffer from metal fatigue (particularly at any fixing point such as a bolt hole) with very little in the way of external signs, the only way that fatigue can be identified is by NDT or X ray.

The higher head speeds currently being used combined with extreme flying styles could well leave aluminium blades susceptible to fatigue or work hardening although I note that they are in use in other countries.

The information provided within the Members Handbook is generally guidance or best practise (except the provisions of the ANO of course which are law) however you will find that most events and many clubs use this document as an operating code and as such can enforce the contents as they feel appropriate.

The BMFA is not able to take this stance and as such each member is responsible for his own actions and chooses whether to abide by the guidance or not.

I hope this is of assistance

Kind regards

Manny Williamson
Development Officer

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02-08-2008 05:15 PM  10 years agoPost 35
dazzaster

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right next door to hell

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looks like a very valid point as to why you shouldnt use them.
after all the pilot is responsable for makeing sure his/her flight can be carried out safely, that rule comes from the ANO which is law and seen as the pilot can not tell if the metal blades are safe just before flight unless he checks them each time by means of xray or ndt then he could be breaking the law.
which is a shame as it seem like there bringing in the fact that a lot of flying is useing high head speeds,you would think they would come up with something along the lines of . you can use them provided the head speed is governed and tested and the rpm does not exceed XXX amount this would them make it ideal for scale aplications where theres a sensible head

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02-08-2008 05:26 PM  10 years agoPost 36
dazzaster

rrKey Veteran

right next door to hell

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maybe even have asystem where the bades have to be sent of and examined by profesionals/manufactorer for fatigue and then date stamped a bit like a mot for blades but as ba board pointed out its how do you control this sort of thing as any one can by a heli and go out and kill him self or even worse someone else.
Darren

A.K.A 509

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02-08-2008 08:37 PM  10 years agoPost 37
chopper jockey

rrApprentice

uk

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The information provided within the Members Handbook is generally guidance or best practise (except the provisions of the ANO of course which are law) however you will find that most events and many clubs use this document as an operating code and as such can enforce the contents as they feel appropriate.

The BMFA is not able to take this stance and as such each member is responsible for his own actions and chooses whether to abide by the guidance or not.
sounds like the BMFA are saying it's not them that are not allowing the use of metal blades, but just advising against it. They are suggesting it is "many clubs" that are forcing the issue, based on their "interpretation" of the BMFA "guidance".

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02-08-2008 08:55 PM  10 years agoPost 38
ba board

rrVeteran

England

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I think the BMFA have, yet again, "copped out". You can't offer advice and guidance one minute and in the next say "never, in any circumstances use them". Just another example of how spineless our so called governing body is. If they want to govern then have the b***s to do so.
The BMFA is not able to take this stance and as such each member is responsible for his own actions and chooses whether to abide by the guidance or not.
Not if you are in a club, you can't. The club interprets and makes the rules, not the individual.
I can't believe that a so called senior officer of our governing body made such a public statement.

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02-08-2008 09:01 PM  10 years agoPost 39
chopper jockey

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uk

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Hey ba,
didn't take you long.

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02-08-2008 09:02 PM  10 years agoPost 40
ba board

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England

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Nor you, apparently

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