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HomeOff Topics › 777 Crashes at Heathrow
03-03-2008 10:28 PM  10 years agoPost 101
Ralphw

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Spring, TX

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We've had no confirmation of any specific cause on the BA accident.

I'm sure that as soon as there is a confirmed cause we (the other operators) WILL know. Cavitation seems pretty unlikely as long as there was enough fuel to cover the pump intakes as it would have required all 4 of the main tank pumps to cavitate simultaneously. Not very likely IMHO.

Ralph W.
"Life's Short, Fly Fast"

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03-03-2008 10:30 PM  10 years agoPost 102
DanW

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Baldwyn, Mississippi

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American Pulls One 777 From Fleet Following Autothrottle Issue
American Airlines grounded one of its 777-200s following a reported autothrottle problem last week, as the aircraft approached to land at Los Angeles International Airport.

According to a report in Air Business Travel News, Flight 299 from Miami to LAX experienced slow engine response to autothrottle inputs February 28, as the aircraft descended through 2,000 feet.

The scenario appears to be similar to that encountered by a British Airways 777 in January, when both engines failed to respond to throttle inputs moments before landing at London Heathrow Airport. That aircraft, operating as Flight 38 from Beijing, China, landed short of the runway January 17, injuring some of the 152 persons onboard.

While the investigation is ongoing, officials have all-but ruled out a mechanical issue in that accident, as ANN reported. There was some damage to the fuel pumps, investigators noted, and what were termed small items of debris found in the BA plane's fuel tanks.

Despite the apparent similarities, however, American Airlines officials stressed the two incidents appear to be unrelated.

The aircraft has been taken out of service and an internal investigation is underway," the airline stated. "A preliminary analysis by Rolls-Royce of the information recorded of the incident by the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) indicates that this was a very different event to that experienced by BA038."

The Allied Pilots Association (APA) represents pilots at American. In a media statement issued last week, the union noted the aircraft's right engine continued to function normally, unlike the British Airways incident -- in which the right engine failed initially, followed approximately eight seconds later by the left.

"AA Flight 229 had the left engine hang up on approach to LAX at approximately 2,000ft," the union stated. "The auto throttles were on and the left engine hung at approach idle as the right engine accelerated normally.

"It is believed that the left engine would not respond to throttle inputs for 10-15 seconds before finally responding and accelerating to the commanded thrust. The right engine performed normally."

Dan

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03-04-2008 12:26 AM  10 years agoPost 103
MattJen

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UK

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thanks for the info Dan and Ralph,

Do you both work in the airline industry ?

As you both seem to know what you are on about

Matt

All The Best

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03-04-2008 01:34 AM  10 years agoPost 104
Ralphw

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Spring, TX

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B777 Instructor for CAL

Ralph W.
"Life's Short, Fly Fast"

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03-04-2008 10:24 PM  10 years agoPost 105
bagobitz

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saddleworth,lancs,UK

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AND THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS??????

CLUE! They both left(and presumably refuelled) a country which it would be politically incorrect to cast aspersions on.

IE- you can't say they've come out of a long period of isolation from Western culture, technology, infrastructure, quality-control and systems, ETC.......Oh! dear! NO!

the PRC is a modern, dynamic ,thrusting, cutting-edge nation and you'd better not believe anything else.

there's a huge thread of conjecture and theories on this one,on the leading Aviation Professionals forum.

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03-04-2008 11:35 PM  10 years agoPost 106
KevinR

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Vancouver, BC Canada

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CLUE! They both left(and presumably refuelled) a country which it would be politically incorrect to cast aspersions on.
There's a Miami in China

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03-05-2008 12:30 AM  10 years agoPost 107
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Wow.

If it turns out the Chinese have been making jet fuel to the same exacting high standards they use to make toys and pet food, those airlines that service that part of the world are gonna have to add auxiliary drop tanks for round trips.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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03-05-2008 01:18 AM  10 years agoPost 108
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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have to add auxiliary drop tanks for round trips.
Extra fuel won't do you any good after you've fouled up the aircraft's fueling system.

Plus,

The report said the LAX bound 777 departed from Miami. Was it previously in the Far East?

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-05-2008 01:21 AM  10 years agoPost 109
GimbalFan (RIP)

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I'm joking about the tanks of course, but they could allow the planes to avoid having to take on questionable Chinese fuel, eh?

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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03-05-2008 10:47 AM  10 years agoPost 110
bagobitz

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saddleworth,lancs,UK

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DUH!!! my bad!!! Yes, the AA flight was on an internal flight.

The Heathrow "incident" is still the subject of a lot of speculation
there is a lot of professional interest in this,fuelled (unintended double entendre!) by the fact there was NO grounding, checks or other Airworthiness Directives....which would suggest that there was no innate Aircraft fault. It was also deemed highly unorthodox to parade the (visibly shaken) Flight-Crew before the "Meeja"

Strange indeed, and doesn't do anything to dispel the speculation.

Yes, the money's on fuel starvation, the question is WHY!
(there was purported to be 10 tons on board) the cavitation theory points to excess water and/or entrained air,coupled with unusually low temperatures from loading to let-down.

Powerboat enthusiasts will be well aware of the destructive effects of cavitation on prop-blades.(one reason why Stainless-steelis used on high-performance stuff instead of the vastly cheaper cast-alloy.

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03-05-2008 11:09 AM  10 years agoPost 111
pigs dont fly

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The PM's car (packed full of radio jammers and other anti terrorist jamming equipment) was on the road very close to the aircraft as it came in...the 777 is all fly by wire....2 + 2 = ?
Seems funny that they have had the aircraft all this time, and the report from the BBC several weeks after was a very quick and quiet..'possibly' had fuel pump problems.

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth

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03-05-2008 02:28 PM  10 years agoPost 112
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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The PM's car (packed full of radio jammers and other anti terrorist jamming equipment) was on the road very close to the aircraft as it came in...the 777 is all fly by wire....2 + 2 = ?
You've contradicted yourself.

The 777 is indeed fly-by-wire. For the PM's jamming equipment to have had an effect, the 777 would need to be fly-by-radio...

RF jamming equipment won't mess with hard wired signals as those a/c are designed with EMI/EMC (electromagnetic interference/Electromagnetic compatibility) in mind.

Gimbal, right, apparently it is I who needs to pull my head out of my arsky now

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-05-2008 02:28 PM  10 years agoPost 113
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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I think you are going to find that the cause of this was pilot error...

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-05-2008 04:28 PM  10 years agoPost 114
pchristy

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Devon, England

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"Pilot "error" is a conclusion reached by a panel of experts who had 6 months to consider what the pilot had a few seconds to ponder!

--
Pete

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03-05-2008 05:10 PM  10 years agoPost 115
tris_heli

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Lidlington, Bedfordshire, UK

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Not sure if its already been covered but here's some info i found the other day :-

Six other engine failures on Boeing 777s
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/hea...ews-240108b.htm

Being the Voice and Wireless Technical Architect for the airport, i especially liked these two

Wireless technology theory to Heathrow crash
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/hea...ews-220108a.htm
Rogue phone call 'may have caused Heathrow crash'
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/hea...ews-230108b.htm

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03-05-2008 05:15 PM  10 years agoPost 116
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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"Pilot "error" is a conclusion reached by a panel of experts who had 6 months to consider what the pilot had a few seconds to ponder!
and yet it's still pilot error whether or not the pilot had a few seconds to "ponder" it.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

Pilot error accounts for a Majority of crashes...

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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03-05-2008 10:08 PM  10 years agoPost 117
wlfk

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uk

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The plane wouldn't necessarily have to be 'fly by radio' in order to be susceptible to Gordon Brown's telephone jammer. Did you ever leave your mobile next to the hi-fi? And even though it was meant to be playing a CD you hear a rhythm through the speakers as it trys to connect.

It would all depend on how powerful Mr Brown's jamming device is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible.

K

A bit like a kite, but 500 times more expensive

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03-17-2008 04:39 PM  10 years agoPost 118
T.J. Kong

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Northern California

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A friend of mine just forwarded this to me. I thought it would be of some interest to you guys.

http://www.aviation-safety-security...me-cold-we.html

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03-17-2008 04:53 PM  10 years agoPost 119
pigs dont fly

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Snip...'The other possibility meriting exploration is that a passenger sitting in the middle of the cabin switched on his unprotected, non-European Union compliant Chinese mobile phone shortly before touchdown, and the transmission from the phone interfered with both FADECs.'

Seeing as it was NOT a very cold day here in the UK that day, and that the Prime Ministers car full of jamming equipment was on the road right in front of the aircraft, I'm still with the cars anti terrorist system shooting the aircraft down..

Warning...This hobby is very addictive and may damage your wealth

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03-17-2008 05:12 PM  10 years agoPost 120
wlfk

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uk

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Interesting and nicely written article.

Imagine being the poor chap who thinks he caused the whole thing when he turned on his mobile phone.

K

A bit like a kite, but 500 times more expensive

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