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HomeOff Topics › Looking to buy... machinegun
02-16-2003 01:58 AM  15 years agoPost 1
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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Hi,

This is pretty off topic and kind of a shot in the dark, so to speak...

My father in law has the necessary requiremements to acquire a machine gun (local law enforcement permission, compatible local ordinances, a local FFL for transfers and most importantly, $$$).

Problem is he is looking for specifically:

TRANSFERRABLE - no dealer samples, etc.
Winchester M-14 (first choice)
TRW M-14
H&R M-14
Springfield M-14 (last choice as they are less rare)

He is NOT looking for the semi-auto only Springfield Armory M1A (I have one) - he wants a true select fire MACHINE GUN. No "project guns" either, please.

He carried a Winchester M-14 in the mid sixties (can you guess where?) and is looking to complete his collection/recreation of his equipment.

Otherwise, he would like a reasonably priced WWI or WWII vintage BAR of any manufacture. This would compliment his very nice 1942 M1 Thompson SMG.

He is well aware how much $$ is required and is prepared to spend it on the right legally transferrable machinegun.

Can anyone point me (us) to a Class III dealer who may have one of these available?

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02-16-2003 03:28 AM  15 years agoPost 2
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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I hate to quibble over terms, but the M-14 is not really a machine gun, per se. It is more aptly descriped as a select-fire automatic rifle. An M60A3, M240G, M249SAW, Browning BAR, and M2 .50cal Browning Machine Gun are all true machine guns, as they are all meant to be fired (and with the exception of the M2, can ONLY be fired) fully automatic all the time. The M-14, on the other hand, while perfectly capable of fully automatic fire, becomes an impractical weapon when fired as such because it is almost uncontrollable when fired full auto. The 7.62x51NATO (.308Win) round is just too powerful for such a light rifle for accurate full auto fire. This is one of the main reasons the M16 is chambered in 5.56mm (.223Rem) and has a straight buttstock and pistol grip. It was meant to allow for fairly accurate full auto fire (now usually burst fire).

That being said, I wish like heck I could get a true M-14, but the class 3 FFL is just too expensive to acquire and maintain. I also don't have any idea where he'd find one, either. If I were him I'd start asking around at gun shops and gun shows. I'd bet, sooner or later, he'd meet another dealer who collects automatic weapons, or knows who who does.

Good luck,

Mike

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02-16-2003 04:33 AM  15 years agoPost 3
Destro

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Baltimore, Maryland

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http://www.gunbroker.com is an auction site like ebay that has a class3 section, i would keep an eye on it for one in case someone puts one up for auction there.

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02-16-2003 09:31 PM  15 years agoPost 4
Steve Campbell

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Baton Rouge, LA

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Mike,

The M2 HB can indeed be fired single shot. There is a knob of sorts, under the butterfly trigger, that one turns to interrupt the spring holding the sear back.

Some excellent long-range sniping has been done with this gun; I saw one at Camp Eagle that had a Redfield 3x9 scope fitted to it. The guy manning it said the idea came from the jarheads.

Years later later, when I became friends with one of Carlos Hathcock's former spotters, he told me that Carlos had ressurrected the idea of using the M2 for a long range sniping tool during his first Nam tour. Supposedly, an army artillery officer first did it in the Korean war, sans scope. There was a fixed North Korean outpost across a valley from the US lines, with an empty 55 gallon drum in a prominent place. Every night after dark, the North Koreans would beat on this drum with sticks all night long; nobody got any sleep, which was the object.

The distance was too far for an '03A3 shot, and the Armistice talks were proceeding anyway. This artillery guy was a forward observer, and the story goes that he offered to fix the problem if the area commander would authorize it. He got the green light, and used an M2 on a tripod, with traversing and elevating mechanism. Using his knowledge of trajectory tables, the known ballistics of the round, and no doubt some fancy math, he dialled the gun in without firing a round and waited for dark, then proceeded to shoot about a half-dozen PRK troops from behind the drum, one at a time, until they finally wised up.

Dunno if that's true or not; a good story, though. But I've seen the "Ma Deuce" used that way; a half-inch, 750 grain bullet coming in from a half-mile or better away is indeed a nasty surprise.

A Winchester M14 would be second only to a TRW in terms of being a choice collector's item. You could probably find an H&R for a couple of grand, but an all-Winchester? Rotsa ruck.

That's problem #1. #2 is that soon after the M-14 was issued in the late 50's , what the warriors knew was going to happen happened; the rifle was basically unusable in full auto mode, since it was so light. So, with the exception of a few that were re-stocked and designated the M-15 Squad Automatic Rifle, most M-14s had their selectors removed and capped, effectively making then semi-auto weapons. The odds of running across one with an active selector for legal sale are slim to none; especially since, with the exception of a few M-14M DCM match rifles, no M-14s were ever released for civilian sale, such as has occurred with the M-1.

Now, I'm not 100% certain about that (none having been released for sale aside from a few match guns), but 95% so. What's really sickening (to me, anyway) is the fact that we- the US government- has given thousands of these M-14s to third world countries. Look at photos of the Nicaraguan contras back in the 80s; some of those slugs hadn't even cleaned the cosmoline from the rifles before swaggering around for the camera.

Ahhh, don't get me started.....

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02-16-2003 10:11 PM  15 years agoPost 5
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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Single shot M2...I know...
Of all the weapons I had the opportunity to shoot in the Corps, the M2 is the one I miss the most. I fired several thousand rounds through them and loved every minute (hated cleaning the darn thing, though, because some idiot always got the wise idea to hose down the reciever with LSA or CLP until it was dripping white snot all over the place and smoking like crazy). I never heard the oil drum story, but the record shot Gunny Hathcock took was at 2650 yards with the M2 which had been fitted with a 10x scope. He and his spotter were set up overlooking a trail the VC regularly used to move supplies (not sure if it was the Ho Chi Mihn trail, though). The VC regularly forced local villagers to move their supplies, and so it wasn't a surprize when a 12 year old (or so) boy came along pushing a bike loaded with several AK-47's and SKS's. Hathcock, not favoring the idea of killing a child, but well aware of the fact that those rifles would likely be shooting at Americans by nightfall, took the first shot which destroyed the front forks of the bike hoping the kid would come to his senses and run off. Unfortunately for the boy, his fear and/or dedication compelled him to pick up the bike and try to get away. The second shot killed him instantly. I remember reading about this in Carlos Hathcocks biography, "Marine Sniper: 93 confirmed kills." Gunny Hathcock's nothing short of a legend in the Marine Corps.

Mike

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02-16-2003 11:09 PM  15 years agoPost 6
Steve Campbell

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Baton Rouge, LA

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<<...nothing short of a legend...>.

He was indeed. You do know he passed last year? The horrible burns he suffered on his last tour finally caught up with him.

Sorry, I mis-read your post. You correctly stated that the M2 was the ONLY crew-served gun (of the ones you mentioned) that had a semi-auto capability.

I had some plumbing work done Friday; guess the anasthesia hasn't completely worn off...

Steve

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02-17-2003 12:13 AM  15 years agoPost 7
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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I know about his death, but the actual cause was Multiple Sclerosis (sp?), which he'd been suffering from for a long time (I'm not trying to be a prick when pointing these things out, I just feel it's important to be as true to history as possible). I'm sure that the burns he suffered in Vietnan didn't help him any. His son, Carlos Hathcock III, followed his dad's footsteps and is currently serving as a scout/sniper and competition marksman in the Corps.

The sniper range at Camp Lejeune is named in honor or Gunny Hathcock.

Mike

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02-17-2003 01:29 AM  15 years agoPost 8
Steve Campbell

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Baton Rouge, LA

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Ok, I had heard it was tissue degradation. MS attacks the central nervous system, I believe.

Whatever; another great American warrior is gone.

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02-17-2003 03:59 AM  15 years agoPost 9
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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Thanks for the replies...

Yes, my F-in-law is well aware of the M-14's inherent limitations. As I mentioned he carried one for at least 1 year (he had a '16 on his second tour). He has checked some shows, and made some calls. He has looked in Shotgun news for one or at least contacts..

I have suggested that the next time we go to Knob Creek, he bring his checkbook. If you guys have ever seen this event, you are missing out of a one-of-a-kind experience. I have never seen anything like it, and I have been on some "loose" mil ranges before. Plus, they have a very extensive gun show, more or less centered around MGs.

Also, I know that as someone who does not have a problem with them, that an M-14 is not a machinegun per se, and is a select fire weapon and of course capable of automatic fire. I also know how uncontrollable they are, having had the opportunity to fire one. I described it as such more I supose as a nod to the legal definition, as I am soliciting a transfer.

I know what you guys mean about missing the M2. I was TC in a M113 (later moved to Bradleys) and had many opportunities to fire the M2 in training.

Does anyone have any other links? I checked the auction site and fornd nothing, not even a BAR (there was one, but the bids started at $20k - ouch).

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02-17-2003 06:22 AM  15 years agoPost 10
fritzthecat

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Virginia Beach, VA

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You can try
http://www.ar15.com

they are more .223 oriented but may be able to help.

Also
http://www.assaultweb.net

Fritz


'Send Money, Women and Guns!'

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02-17-2003 02:32 PM  15 years agoPost 11
Steve Campbell

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Baton Rouge, LA

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Dude,

We don't have a problem with the M-14, and as to its "limitations", I can't speak for Mike, but I was just trying to illustrate why it is going to be difficult to find what your father-in-law wants.

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02-17-2003 02:49 PM  15 years agoPost 12
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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Steve C
No offence meant or taken. I sometimes am not as articulate as I would like to be, so I apologize for any misunderstanding. I like to think that generally, firearms enthusiasts are a polite group.

By "having a problem" I meant a certain segment of the population that thinks a Ruger 10/22 is an assault rifle. And by "them" I did not mean specifically an M-14, but firearms capable of automatic fire.

Yep, he is aware of how difficult it will be to locate one. However, given the patience and the $$, I think he will find one.

Thanks for your help.

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02-17-2003 09:00 PM  15 years agoPost 13
Steve Campbell

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Baton Rouge, LA

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<<...certain segment...that thinks a 10-22 is an assault rifle...>>

I hear you. No offense taken; I was just wondering why you thought I/we were bashing the -14 when we weren't. But you didn't...

Like I said to Mike earlier, I was on some pretty good pharmaceuticals for most of the week-end. Guess I need to stay away from the computer if there is a next time; which I devoutly hope there is NOT.

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02-18-2003 02:21 AM  15 years agoPost 14
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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I LOVE the M-14/M1A...
However, I still like the M1 Garand better, but I would love to have a fine match grade M1A. I've found that I enjoy precision shooting better than punding rounds downrange anymore anyway, but I'll take it either way. I've actually been mostly into muzzleloading anyway. My Knight will shoot sub-MOA groups from the bench if I do my part. I entertained the idea of getting or making an ultra-accurate bench/varmint rifle, but between the cost of the rifle and the cost of the reloading gear needed to work up precision loads, I decided I'd have too many irons in the fire hobby wise.

No offense taken, BTW. Good luck finding your rifle. If you do find one, put up a pic, I'd like to see it.

Mike

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02-18-2003 03:19 AM  15 years agoPost 15
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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Name 'em
I enjoy an accurate rifle more than just a shooter, too. Who can name them all...? You can skip the junkier ones on the right.

http://users.adelphia.net/~fordgpw1942/guns.htm

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02-19-2003 03:51 AM  15 years agoPost 16
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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Hmm...
Let's see:

From left:

1) Not sure...Mini-14...no, maybe Ruger 10/44?
2.) M1 Garand
3.) M1903 Springfield (?)
4.) M-14/M1A
5.) Ruger 10/22 w/ Bull bbl
6.) Mosin-Nagant M44
7.) Single pump, spring air foul-legged pest control!
8.) Side-by-side dbl bbl 12 gauge...biped pest control!
9.) Unknown bolt action. Probably a good ol' 30-06. Deer rifle?

Mike

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02-19-2003 03:58 AM  15 years agoPost 17
rockcrawler

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Covington Wa

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Call my dad @ small arms ult.
1425 246 2370.
We have many family contacts in this area.
FYI You are lucky everytime I want to trade a preban or a collectable
for rc equipment my thread is alwaise deleated.

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02-19-2003 04:00 AM  15 years agoPost 18
rockcrawler

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Covington Wa

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Oh and for top firearms who was the braintrust who
omitted the famous rem700.
I got mine in arlington!!!! Made just for me.
ONE SHOT ONE KILL.

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02-19-2003 01:55 PM  15 years agoPost 19
42GPW

rrNovice

North Royalton, Ohio

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Driftrider...
Wow, nice job! And I deliberately put an unclear picture up, too.

You missed the easiest, though.
left to right...

users.adelphia.net/~fordgpw1942/guns.htm
1) .30 Carbine, M1 (1944 Winchester) - my favorite historical. This one gets put in the rifle rack whenever I take the jeep out. Also a nice shooter and a good one to use if your wife or girlfriend ever wants to go shoot.
2) .30 Rifle, M1 (1953 H&R) - got from the CMP, I've been told it is a low serial number and is worth a about twice what I paid for it.
3) .30 cal. rifle, M1903A3 (1942 Remington) - got from the CMP only fired it a few times. In really nice shape, bright shiny barrel, though the original stock is a bit rough.
4) Springfield Armory M1A (match barrel, sights and trigger - sub MOA shooter)
5) Ruger 10/22 with target barrel (this one will put them all in the same hole at 50 yards and is my favorite from a fun standpoint)
6) Mosin-Nagant M44 (never fired it, paid $40 still in the cosmoline, or whatever they used)
7) Gamo air rifle - not as accurate as I had hoped it would be (still looking for the kind of pellets it likes), but powerful.
8) Junk shot gun, wall hanger. The coloring? Its spray paint. I should get it out of that cabinet before it contaminates the rest of them.
9) Sporterized 98K Mauser. My first rifle, given to me by my dad. Also junk (barrel was cut to shorten), NOT accurate, get lots of keyholing. I wish it was still in original condition.


Not pictured:
Walther P-38, 1943 marked BF (or BFY) 43, I think (I am at work)... like new condition.
Browning Buckmark target barrel .22 pistol.

I'd like to get a good CC pistol, not sure what yet, still thinking about it and waiting for the laws to change here in Ohio.

My F-in-Law, has more guns than I can name, and probably a few I have never seen

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02-19-2003 03:35 PM  15 years agoPost 20
Hughes500Pilot

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Anaheim, CA

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Poor Man's Machine Gun
I use to have a Colt Sporter H-Bar. I bought it new for $700. I sold it for $2000 just before the 1994 Califorina assault weapon law came into effect. I wish I still had it, but there are too many crazy laws here in CA.

However, I have found something just as cool. They are called AEG's. That stands for Automatic Electric Gun. These are exact scale replicas of the real gun. They shoot 6mm BB's in semi-automatic mode and in full automatic mode. I know they are not real high-powered rifles, but they will go right through an alluminum can. Plus, you can shoot them just about anywhere. And ammo is about $10 for 3000 rounds.

They come in all makes and sizes. Their only real drawback is their price. They start at about $200 and go up to $1500 for the M-60. Here are a few photos.

-Steve







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