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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-AlignT-REX 450 › mh frame Qs - Servo Links?
08-01-2007 02:38 AM  13 years ago
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darkfa8

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Brick, NJ - USA

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mh frame Qs - Servo Links?
I have my mh Pro Advanced frame going together with hs65mg servos and I'm not sure if the output shafts should be positioned towards the top of the frame or on the bottom, since my 450sev1 servo links are too long with the output shafts at the top, closest to the swash.

any help or pics would be appreciated!
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-01-2007 04:50 AM  13 years ago
phattalon

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Anderson, Indiana

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Output shafts should go to the bottom. If i am right that frame is really similar to my hdx superframe. Look in my gallery at the mangled rex and you can see.
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08-02-2007 02:23 AM  13 years ago
darkfa8

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in the mh instructions it shows the servo output towards the top. i found some ark 400 servo links and cut them down to achieve the recommended 33mm length in the mh manual and that seems to work, now i just need to get the throws right.- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-02-2007 04:21 AM  13 years ago
bigdog714

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If the pro is a eCCPM frame the servo arms should be 5 to 10 degrees above horizantal, for HS-65 servos, the control ball should be 15.0mm, or .590inch from center, CP settings for Hitec servos are,
Aileron(CP2) -65%
Elevator(CP3) +65%
Pitch(CP6) +80%
these are recommended base line settings from Align.
MD 800
Logo 600SE
Logo 14/500 Carbon
Ballistic 700
HD 500V2
Hirobo 50E
Avant 90E
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08-02-2007 08:05 AM  13 years ago
Dynamic^Cipher

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Kelowna

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I used trex600 links to connect my servos to my swash cause I couldn't find any other links that were the right length.Full metal 600 1515/2.5d CC110HV GY611 HBEC :: STK450 MR28-40-3400 CC45 4cell V2 head and tail
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08-02-2007 03:07 PM  13 years ago
darkfa8

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bigdog, the specs for the align frame are not going to help. the mh frame uses a different servo layout then the align and btw, there is no such thing as e-ccpm or m-ccpm.

there is ONLY mechincal mixing or CCPM. Back in the early 1970's Ewald Heim designed a system called Collective Cyclic Pitch Mixing that was totally different from existing Mechanical systems. His system utilized a special transmitter that combined the operation of the servos at the same time to move the swash up and down for collective control.

just a fyi
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-03-2007 03:26 AM  13 years ago
bigdog714

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yes there is, eCCPM the aileron, pitch, and elevator servos are mounted around the rotor head and move together to maneuver the heli, reducing the strain on the individual servo like in mCCPM were the pitch servo does only pitch, aileron, only right and left, elevator, only foward and reverse. I have read a few articles about it, and there is one on HelifeverMD 800
Logo 600SE
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Ballistic 700
HD 500V2
Hirobo 50E
Avant 90E
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08-03-2007 11:43 AM  13 years ago
darkfa8

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you can believe whatever you want, fact of the matter is that the acronym "CCPM" wasn't even in the lexicon of speach in this hobby until Heim invented the system in the 70s. Up until then and still today, a lot of helis use a mechanical mix setup.

Example: Century Hawk Pro: mechanical, each servo performs a singular, independant function

Example 2: Audacity Tiger 50: CCPM, 3 servos combine to perform 3 functions

If you want to read an article from a credible source try reading Mike Mas's article on this exact subject in his free preview magazine on his website.

When enough people start using terminology incorrectly it seems to make it ok. Still doesn't mean that it's correct.
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-03-2007 12:45 PM  13 years ago
TomRex

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Darkf8t. Don't say that to the 1st Cav guys from Nam!
Even in the 50s-60s was ccpm. Memory says that Mr Bell and Mr Hiller's work on disk stabilization resulted in the ccpm as we know it today. If I'm wrong please let me know! You're right about the acronym entering the hobby in the 70s though. As far as symantecs go the 'eCCPM should be named to cCCPM (Computer Collective Cyclic Pitch Mixing)vs: mCCPM (Mechanical Collective Cyclic Pitch Mixing)
The mainflow of the Heli Hobby was enhanced greatly in the 80s with the invent of the computer radio manufactured for the masses at a reasonable prices. So I guess the eCCPM is a direct result of the computer radio simply because the radios of the day weren't capable, religating the CCPM designs to be Mechanical. Can you see it?
Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact
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08-04-2007 12:05 AM  13 years ago
darkfa8

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simple explantion
we're talking about model helicopters, NOT full scale.

For clarification, CCPM means Collective Cyclic Pitch MIXING, keyword, "MIXING".

A model helicopter is either a Mechanical single servo setup OR a CCPM setup.

CCPM setup: the transmitter MIXES 3-4 servos through software programming to achieve collective and cyclic movement of the swash. give any collective pitch, aileron or elevator input and at least 2 or more servos operate at the same moment to produce the desired swash movement.

Mechanical setup: a simple stick movement on the transmitter moves ONE servo for EACH input. give a elevator input, ONLY the elevator servo moves. give a aileron input, ONLY the aileron servo moves. give a collective pitch input, ONLY the pitch servo moves.

By now, I hope you understand that on a model helicopter like the Century Hawk Pro or the Hirobo Freya or the Thunder Tiger Raptor that there is NO MIXING going on either in the mechanicals of the heli or in the transmitter to achieve proper swash movement. One input, One servo moves to produce a result, that's it.

So the word "MIXING" in the acronym CCPM means that it is a system that can ONLY be achieved through electronic MIXING IN the transmitter that allows 3-4 servos to operate TOGETHER to produce a desired swash input.

For the last 30 or so years there are "still" only two collective control systems- mechanical and ccpm. So saying there is mCCPM is just plain wrong, saying there is eCCPM is an insult to our intelligence, though people seem to like to make basic terminology more complicated by adding letters here and there.
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-05-2007 06:25 PM  13 years ago
TomRex

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NotIgnorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact
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08-05-2007 07:49 PM  13 years ago
helimeister

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Torrance, CA-USA

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darkfa8

Thanks for the clarification. People can call them what they want but I have only seen two systems as you have stated. thanks
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08-05-2007 10:17 PM  13 years ago
darkfa8

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TomRex, the throttle operation is in NO way affiliated with the terminology CCPM. You're just making it more complicated then it needs to be. Unless you want to invent a new acronym that's even worse then the incorrect existing ones, tCCPM.. yea!! let's do that to confuse MORE people! YAY!

On all helicopters throttle is operated with collective and/or trimmed to give optimal power given a collective setting. Throttle operation, movement or output has NO correlation to the operation of a Mechanical or CCPM servo arraingement for operation of the swash plate. Why would you even try and make that association?

And it doesn't matter WHERE the servos are on the helicopter. On the tail boom, under the heli, on the main shaft, where ever, IT DOESN'T MATTER.... BUT, if they all move at the same time to produce a swash movement they are CCPM. Repeating myself now, if they move ONE at a TIME for EACH control input, then it is a MECHANICAL system.

That's a FACT. Plain and simple and in English.

btw,

Trex 450 SE = CCPM swash control
Trex 450 HDE - Mechanical swash control

...and Disk Stabilization was a result of Arthur Young's stabilizer bar in 1940, and Hiller's mixer do not correlate to the kind of cyclic collective control methods.
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-05-2007 10:33 PM  13 years ago
TomRex

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NotIgnorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact
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08-05-2007 10:38 PM  13 years ago
darkfa8

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Tom, cool, now it may irk you when other people use the wrong words, and you'll see it on packaging of models, but you've become a bit wiser.

I'm not gonna go on a crusade against all the people who use words incorrectly, but if one person realized the error, then some good has been done

take care
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-05-2007 10:49 PM  13 years ago
tangojack

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Calgary, Alberta, Canada

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CCPM terminology
LOL!

darkfa8.......excellent response to a term often referred to in error.

Makes total sense to a lot of people NOW, doesn't it!

Thanks for a great thread.

Jack in Calgary
So much sky.......so little money........
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08-06-2007 12:11 PM  13 years ago
TomRex

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Wait a minute! Where does a fixed pitch come in? Remember the hornet FP? Then they came out with the CP and also had ccpm kits to upgrade a fixed pitch. That being said, ccpm is ccpm doesn't matter how you cut the pie, its the head that is ccpm. Now how its activated would either be E' or M' I think you're incorrect Drkf8t.Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact
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08-06-2007 01:18 PM  13 years ago
bigdog714

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I dont disagree with you on the CCPM issue, you are correct, the thing being with the 450 class electrics having the option of 90 degree swashplate frame or a 120 degree swashplate frame, there is a new terminology emerging using mCCPM(mechanical CCPM)to describe the 90 degree swashplate set-up being that it uses a series of mechanical linkages to operate the swashplate, and each servo has a sole purpose, eCCPM(electronic CCPM) for 120-140 degree swashplates, where the servos are directly hooked to the swashplate and all work together. I believe the current change is to make it easier to understand for the new pillots. The marketing world seems to be using CCPM and 3D as synonimous terms, when in actuality as long as the heli can fly, it covers the definition of three dimensional flight that I learned in my physics class. I dont know if it simplifies or complicates things, it might be a good topic for discusion.MD 800
Logo 600SE
Logo 14/500 Carbon
Ballistic 700
HD 500V2
Hirobo 50E
Avant 90E
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08-07-2007 01:19 AM  13 years ago
darkfa8

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Brick, NJ - USA

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ok, how about this:

forget the helicopter airframe entirely!

get yourself a table, put a transmitter, 4 servos, a receiver and a receiver battery. hook it all up.

you have a throttle channel, pitch channel, aileron channel & elevator channel hooked up to the 4 servos.

1. a Mechanical cyclic pitch system will ONLY do the following:

- if you move a single cyclic input, like aileron, ONLY the servo plugged into the aileron channel will operate. The others will NOT move. If you operate the collective input, ONLY the servos plugged into the pitch and throttle channel will move.

2. a CCPM system will ONLY do the following:

- if you move a single cyclic input, like aileron, 2-3 of the servos that are NOT throttle will operate. If you move the collective/throttle stick, ALL of the cyclic servos (Ail, Ele, & Pitch), along with Throttle will operate.

As for a fixed pitch heli there is NO collective pitch servo, there is ONLY Aileron, Elevator, Throttle & Rudder. There is NO mixing going on here in it's pure form.

The way the electronics (tx, rx, servos) work to produce a swash plate movement are the primary different between a Mechanical and a CCPM setup.

How the servos are arrainged or linked to the swash is designed based on providing a copromise between space on the airframe, load bearing, geometry correction/interaction correction and adjustability, usually. It doesn't matter if it's a 90*, 120*, 140*, 360*, 980* swash plate design.

ditch the "e" and the "m" and just use the correct terminology because these extra, wrong letter do not make it easier. if people don't know any better, they wouldn't know the difference unless you told them which acronym was correct.

if everyone started saying 1+1=3, i'm sure some newbie would believe it. it's not correct, but if enough people say it is, then i guess it might as well be. it doesn't make sense, but that's most of how the works as it is.

it would be easier if people used the correct language, the correct terminology and taught the same to new comers.

This concept is not rocket science, its common sense. I don't know how else to simplify this other then maybe writing it in Latin
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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08-07-2007 03:27 AM  13 years ago
TomRex

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Today I heard from a Heli Guru friend who said the term is correct enough for modeling. At the same time said the only two types of ccpm are 120* and 90* front, back or sideways and the swash controls the cyclic,collective simultainiously by mixing control inputs. Contradictory? So lets design a system with two servos on each side to run the swash for heavy loading. I'm tired of toasting motors in the 65s.Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact
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