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07-30-2007 10:16 PM  13 years ago
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flustercluck

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Newnan Ga (Just S. of ATL)

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glow plugs / mixtures / etc
-EDIT- I inadvertently put this under the TT forum-

gang I'm new to nitro, and intermediate pilot coming from a Trex450. I recently got a used Raptor 50 with a Toki 40 & Toki pipe

my question and plea for help: at the field today, I attached the glow driver to the OS8 plug, started the heli, got her idling ....but after about 10 sec or so I removed the glow driver, and I noticed what I thought was a small drop in rpm, and maybe a little rougher idle... so I reattached the driver & she smoothed out...then I'd detach the driver, and same thing: small but subtle drop, little rougher, etc etc

so I'm thinking, hmmmm...... I don't remember this... so I bagged it thinking maybe the plug was going bad (I've been fooling w/ the mixtures) ...anywhoo, I went home & took the OS8 out, and the filament has that 'frosty white' look to it... and there's the 1st question: is this normal?

thinking the plug was bad, I found an unused A3... I wanted to see what the filament glow looked like on each plug while outside the heli, so I put each one on the driver...not surprisingly, the A3 definately glowed brighter under the same 3.0 volts- so I installed the A3 in the Rappy & headed for the field

Holy Cannoli! MAN, did the motor seem messed up!! I hadn't changed the high needle, but now there was a profound difference in throttle response...with the motor WAY behind the throttle (i.e., move the collective, took a few sec for the engine to respond ?!?!:eek

so can y'all take me to school on plugs and their relation to mixtures?? I took a pic of my 3 plugs: the stock Toki plug, the OS8 I was running, and the A3 I TRIED to run

I hope you can see that the Toki plug has a larger diameter filament; the OS8 has the "frosty white" filament (indicative of a plug going bad? is that why rpms drop when the driver comes off?); and the new A3 with the silvery-metallic filament

it may well be that a new plug is a good idea since they're cheap, but my questions are: will the A3 work and if so was the throttle sluggishness due to the fact that I SHOULD have richened or leaned the mix for this hotter plug?

I'm in Atlanta where you can fry eggs on the sidewalk; is this a factor in plug heat selection? does a brighter glow indicate a "hotter" plug, or is the brightness of the glow related to the newness or condition of the plug?

do plugs retain their silvery-metallic "new" look, and do the way plugs look after they've been run a while tell me (or SHOULD tell me) about whether my mixtures are correct (I'm running CP25%)

ofcourse I could just get another Toki OEM plug from Century, but including shipping they're about $10 delivered- twice what an OS8 costs at the LHS...and it's handier just running downtown to grab a plug vs waiting a week for UPS

sorry for the long post, guys... as I said, I can fly a heli but I'm new to nitro, and trying to figger some of this stuff out

thx in advance for the help!

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07-30-2007 10:30 PM  13 years ago
Nitrohuffer

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Bloomingburg,NY

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On cp they should look like new if you mixture is right. 3 volts is a bit high for a glow starter. Toki's are a bit harder to tune. An os 50 is a set and forget motor. Dump the toki and life will be easier. I recomend a hyper 50 and a mp5Lungs transformed to take in water.
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07-31-2007 04:43 PM  13 years ago
jester4

rrKey Veteran - Brampton, Ontario - MyPosts All  Forum  Topic

Here's a picture of the different types of OS glow plugs:

and here's an overview of how to select from the different types of plugs:

http://www.osengines.com/accys/choosing-glowplugs.html

Generally if you go to a different heat range plug, then for sure you would have to adjust the needles to compensate
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07-31-2007 07:53 PM  13 years ago
flustercluck

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Newnan Ga (Just S. of ATL)

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On cp they should look like new if you mixture is right. 3 volts is a bit high for a glow starter. Toki's are a bit harder to tune. An os 50 is a set and forget motor. Dump the toki and life will be easier. I recomend a hyper 50 and a mp5

nitro great info... I hear ya on the Hyper50! although everybody rags on the Toki 40, I actually like the motor...she's a good performer...but I just need to get ahead a bit on $$$ before I can upgrade

this "nitro noob" appreciates the info
cheers
Jeff
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07-31-2007 07:57 PM  13 years ago
flustercluck

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jester..precisely what I was looking for...good stuff

question: you say "needles" plural- I always thought one should not mess with the low/idle needle; that all mixture adjustments are to the "high" needle?

is this correct? when/under what conditions/why should I try adjustments to the "low" needle? (obviosly, there are no "clicks"

thx

jeff
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07-31-2007 08:46 PM  13 years ago
jester4

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Brampton, Ontario

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The small OS engines such as the 32 and the 37 are pretty dependant on the low speed needle. Some say that it actually controls the mixture right up until 60-70% of throttle. I always adjust my low speed needle to obtain a good idle, but this causes the engine to be too lean in most cases, so the factory position is usually a good starting point to tune the high speed needle first.
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07-31-2007 09:14 PM  13 years ago
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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Flustercluck
If this problem just started happening with your Toki 40 be very carefull. Reason is the crank bearing cage maybe just starting to let go and throwing alittle stuff through your engine. My Toki ws rebuilt twice by the factory under warranty for the rear bearing issues and I then got rid of it after recieving it from the rebuild the second time. If you blow a plug,,stop using it and check the bearings.
How much time you have on th Toki?
Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them
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07-31-2007 09:25 PM  13 years ago
flustercluck

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turbo it's a low-time motor; I got it used (came w/ heli, and according to seller had a few gallons thru?) and I'm on my 3rd gal

you're scaring me, bro!!

part of my problem is that I didn't recvd the motor well-tuned, so I've been messing with mixtures.. which prolly fouled a plug, etc, causing the orig issues in my post

last night I finally put a new A3 plug in (I'm running CP25%) and flew 3 tanks and she really flew well & pulled strong.. but as a backup I ordered a couple OEM plugs from Century, since the filament in the Toki plug definitely looks different from the OS filament in size, windings, etc

as to the bearings, the furthest I've gone into a teardown is to have the backplate off (crank & bearings were visible)

if I go in, what am I looking for? I seriously doubt warranty applies, since no way could I get a recpt

thx
jeff
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07-31-2007 11:16 PM  13 years ago
flyingquisinart

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Detroit Area

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I apologize if I duplicated a response--isn't a frosty plug indicative of a lean condition? I would richen up the low end for starters-maybe the high end too.must have been a downdraft
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07-31-2007 11:30 PM  13 years ago
ZXXflyer

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stone mountain, georgia, US

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white plug= too lean/hot
distorted coil= too much compression
blown coil= check bearings, alo could be WAY too lean, but usually bearings

Set the isle good and rich with the pich test, tthen fly and adjust the main needle. once the main is set, adjust the idle screw for good transition from idle and smooth hover. repeat pinch test.
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08-01-2007 12:05 AM  13 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Bad bearings usually don't destroy the coil, they put little bits of metal onto the coil that put out the fire. If you clean them, they usually work fine again.

Bad bearings will cause the motor to rattle, and unless the bearing just lets go and trashes the motor, the bits of metal will keep flaming out the plug.

The plug that came out of your motor looks like it has seen a lot of lean running.

When tuning the motor, you don't just leave the low speed needle where it is and hope for the best.

If you can find out what the factory recommended settings are for the needles, put them back there, and start tuning them from scratch.

Don't try to achieve a nice reliable idle using the low speed needle. Use the throttle trim on your transmitter to keep the motor running at idle. Run the throttle up to the point where the heli is light and just about to lift off. Set the high speed needle to get the motor running well at this point. Go back to idle, keeping the motor running using throttle trim if you have to. Adjust the low speed needle to get a smooth transition from idle up to the point where the heli is about to lift off. It shouldn't blubber and spit, and it shouldn't just quit. There should be no hesitation when you increase throttle.

This should get you a basic needle setting where you have a decent low end, a good transition out of idle, and a decent mid-range setting.

Lift off and do some forward flight. Adjust the high speed needle to give you good power in FFF at full throttle without being lean. This takes some experimenting and perhaps a few tanks of fuel. Fine tune the low speed needle as you do this, generally the needles will interact to some degree.

Fine tune the high and low end. As you get the carb adjusted, you'll find that you can decrease the amount of throttle trim required to keep you running smooth at idle.

If you try to adjust the low speed needle to get a good, slow idle, you'll usually end up with the low speed setting too lean, and will never be able to get a good setting on the high speed needle.

Find someone in your area who can show you how to tune an engine.

-----

A quick way to check the low speed needle setting is to let the motor sit at idle for 10-15 seconds, then pinch the fuel feed line close to the carb. It should take 3-5 seconds before the motor speeds up and starts to die. If it takes much longer, the idle is too rich, if it dies much quicker, the idle is too lean.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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08-01-2007 04:00 AM  13 years ago
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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Good advice for sure on all counts. I was giving my experience with the Toki is all. I was breaking her in rich,and the bearing retainer was breaking apart and burnt out 2 glow plugs and put a black goop on the piston and the retainer material burned in the cylinder.
It was not rattling at all.
My motor would kick ass if leaned but was way out of range on the main /idle needle setting as recommended from the factory and would get warm /hot so I would back off to the factory settimgs and it would run like crap.
I have owned many heli and airplane motors but this Toki 40 had me stumped from the beginning. Not saying I'm an expert at all.
All he says about this motor so far brings back bad memories. I do hope he has better luck than me but many have been burned by this motor that have more experience than I.
Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them
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08-01-2007 05:57 PM  13 years ago
w8qz

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Grand Rapids, MI - USA

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One other thing to check:

If the Raptor clutch disc has a cracked 'flexure', the clutch will drag all the time, putting a load on the engine at idle that's not supposed to be there. Adjusting the mixture so the engine will pull that 'drag' will give you a much too lean setting. When your engine is idling, does the rotor always spin? If so, fix your clutch first, before trying to get the low speed needle set.
That clutch 'crack' can be VERY hard to see - I missed it, until I polished the outside surface with 400 grit paper.
Been thru this, learned the hard way!
"The helicopter is much easier to design than the aeroplane, but is worthless when done. W. Wright"
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08-01-2007 08:57 PM  13 years ago
flustercluck

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Newnan Ga (Just S. of ATL)

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wow, fellas, thx for taking me to school!!

great stuff, and VERY helpful to someone transitioning from electric to nitro

one-by-one now:
jester...
you are exactly correct: the low needle seems to make 5 times as much diffference, from idle thru half-stick, as the high needle! and it seems to be far more sensitive to ANY change- thx for that insight

zxxflyer
...also good stuff, in that I'd not heard of the "pinch test" (again- I'm a nitro noob)...so I'm doing that now

dkshema-
what detail...thx for all that info...I reset everything back to factory, leaned the low needle JUST A HAIR, and that has helped the transition from idle to where the heli is light on the skids w/ no hesitation (which it had before).. as to the overall idle performance it's now stable and just at the point where the mains will either NOT turn at all or just BARELY turn..and I've done the pinch test and it's about 4 sec til the engine speeds up, before cutting off.. so hopefully I'm good there

turboomni
I'm now understanding what many say about the Toki 40: when it's tuned right, it's a powerhouse.. but for sure, it requires patience & trial-n-error on the needles..in fact, my "expert pilot" buddy test-flew my Raptor a few days ago (when the tuning was still less than optimum) and wasn't aware of the engine he did a few full-power climbouts/loops etc and was definitely surprised it was "only a 40"...so I know that when tuned well this little Toki can move that Rappy pretty fast..it's getting there that's the pain (and I'm running 600mm woodies, no less!)

lastly, w8qz-
what is a clutch "flexure??" what am I looking for? at idle my blades are not under load, and don't start spinning til I bring up the collective...

guys again thanks for all this help.. I sure am way ahead of where I'd be, were I experimenting on my own

cheers
jeff
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08-02-2007 01:53 AM  13 years ago
w8qz

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Grand Rapids, MI - USA

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By 'flexure' I mean the (2) sections of the Raptor clutch that have to bend slightly to allow the clutch to expand outward, and drive the clutch bell - in particular, the areas by the (2) approx. 1/4" holes (that have slots leading out from them) or, in other words, the part of the clutch 'disc' that has to bend slightly with each engage / disengage.
Guess I need a picture to describe this better.
Anyhow, if your blades aren't turning at idle, you're probably have a good clutch.
"The helicopter is much easier to design than the aeroplane, but is worthless when done. W. Wright"
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08-02-2007 02:27 AM  13 years ago
flustercluck

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Newnan Ga (Just S. of ATL)

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ok, with ya now

it's a new clutch & bell so I should be ok

thx for the tip

jeff
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