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07-30-2007 09:59 PM  13 years ago
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702nitro

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Las Vegas, NV

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440mm flybar and ..
Align CF Paddle. What is the distance in (mm) between the paddle and the flybar cage?

thanks in advance
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07-30-2007 10:50 PM  13 years ago
j5coat

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Phoenix

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it depends on how far you screw on the paddles. it doesnt really matter as long as the paddles are the same distance from the flybar cage. mine are at 138mm.Trex 700, Trex 600n
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07-30-2007 10:59 PM  13 years ago
702nitro

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Las Vegas, NV

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I just need a reference number. I'll keep the 138mm number in mind when I get the flybar and paddle in.
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07-31-2007 07:35 PM  13 years ago
SCADABOY

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Brantford, Ontario, Canada

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A question Gents.....

In my kit. the original Flybar is 400mm in length. I picked up a spare one at my LHS and the new ones are 440mm? so what gives? What is the difference in flight characteristics?

Which one to use?

Thanks,
Scadaboy
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07-31-2007 08:01 PM  13 years ago
702nitro

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Las Vegas, NV

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With the 440mm flybar, the heli should be more stable and have better cyclic authority.
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07-31-2007 09:14 PM  13 years ago
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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What is the difference in flight characteristics?
While I don't understand it all yet...In fact I am emailing with a physics professor buddy of mine and we are going to look at it a bit more and the relation of weight/surface area/airfoil/moment.

I am pretty sure I am smoking something...Which is why I have contacted the good professor to check and correct me. But here is what I have so far people please correct me where I am wrong…Like I needed to say that? ):

The theory is that a longer flybar will do three things:
  • Increase the amount of speed at the paddle.
  • Allow more rotational force to be applied given the same input (moment).
  • Increase inertia at the paddle.
Speed.
A 400mm flybar with a HS of 2000 RPM will travel 93.67 MPH.
A 440mm flybar with a HS of 2000 RPM will travel 103.04 MPH.

More speed equals a quicker response all other things remaining the same. Interestingly enough, an increase of flybar length of 10% seems to give about a 10% increase in speed.

Rotational force (moment).
Think of a lever. A long lever can put more force on an object with less power needed than a smaller one. This should make things faster. If we take a flybar length (arm) and multiply by paddle weight (weight) we get rotational force applied on an axis (moment).

400mm X 17g (the weight of the stock paddle) we get 6800 as the moment

440mm X 17g we get 7480 or 10% more force applied.

Inertia.
This actually *hurts* responsiveness in theory (Newton’s second law and where I start to lose my mind working on the numbers ). Basically though, the more inertia the more energy will needed to create an input or the more time it will take for that input to be felt given the same power applied. I have no idea yet how to figure out the cost of the added inertia. I think it is just F = ma, but I also think I need to take into account vector quantities and this is where I start to go insane .

My really rough thought is to take the mass (17g) and multiply by the speed.

400mm: 93.67 MPH X 17g = 1592.39
440mm: 103.04 MPH x 17g = 1751.68

Or about a 10% penalty.

So we add 10% to the length of the flybar and we get 10% more speed and 10% more power minus what ever we lose due to the gain in inertia (maybe 10%). So the overall gain would be 10%

One theory is that the added inertia will make it more stable when there is no input, and that the added speed and power will make it more responsive to an input.

This can be fixed by adding lighter paddles.

Stubz are 12.5g.

So:
  • Stock 400mm with 17g gram paddles:
    93.67 MPH
    6800 moment
    1592.39 inertia
  • 440mm with 17g:
    103.04 MPH
    7480 moment
    1751.68 inertia
So with Stubz you get
  • Stock 400mm with 12.5g paddles
    93.67 MPH
    6800 moment
    1170.88 inertia
  • 440mm with 12.5g paddles
    103.04 MPH
    7480 moment
    1288 inertia
So with the 440mm and Stubz you get faster speed, more power, and less inertia.

But the real question...and one I have no real idea how to find the answer is: If you can do only one, which is better?

1. The stock flybar with lighter paddles or,
2. A longer flybar with stock paddles.

The math seems to show a 48% increase just by keeping the stock flybar and adding the paddles vs adding a longer flybar and keeping the stock paddles. Minus the 20% reduction due to speed and moment decrease you get a net gain of 28%.

So in my terrible math, physics theory all jacked up thinking, the upgrade paddles are more gain than the long flybar with stock paddles.

Of course we still need to take into consideration the shape, airfoil, and surface area of the paddles and how they produce a given input based on speed and mass....Ah.......screw it, I'm done.
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07-31-2007 09:36 PM  13 years ago
SCADABOY

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Brantford, Ontario, Canada

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WOW RonHill!!!!!!!!!!

That is going to take my grey matter a while to soak in and digest!

Very much appreciate your answer - please let me know when you hear from your professor buddy, this looks very intriguing, in the mean time I'll use the stock Flybar I received with the kit and give it a go.

Thanks again!
Scadaboy
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07-31-2007 09:52 PM  13 years ago
DS 8717

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Here wishing i was somewhere else

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In reality you probably wont notice any difference between the 400 and 440mm flybar with everthing else being the same other than the flybar. I did a test at the field changing to a longer bar and could barely tell any difference,it was a very slight bit faster. if i hadn't done back to back testing i would not have been able to tell the difference.DOUGYOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED
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08-01-2007 12:31 AM  13 years ago
inkspot1967

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Cranston Ri

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thx RonHill my head hurts now.....
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08-01-2007 12:43 AM  13 years ago
AzHyper

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Peoria, Az.

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Lets not forget that the longer flybar has more flex as well....
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08-01-2007 12:44 AM  13 years ago
JAGNZ

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Auckland, New Zealand

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So it seems the best combo would be the 440 flybar with Stubz then? Ok, will give that a shot.
Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz
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08-01-2007 01:09 AM  13 years ago
inkspot1967

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Cranston Ri

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ive been flying with the 400mm and stubz going to try the 440mm i just put it on now with stubz tomorow hopefully....
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08-01-2007 01:13 AM  13 years ago
JAGNZ

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Auckland, New Zealand

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Cool, please report back as to the differences. The 440 is cheap to buy so it is a very viable option.
Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz
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08-01-2007 01:39 AM  13 years ago
702nitro

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Las Vegas, NV

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H60143 600 Carbon Fiber Flybar Paddle/3K
400mm with 12g (H60143 Align CF paddle)
----------------------------------------------
93.67 MPH
Moment(400mm x 12g) = 4800 (29% decr in efficiency from stock)
Inertia(93.67 x 12g) = 1124 (29% incr in responsiveness from stock)

440mm with 12g (H60143 Align CF paddle)
----------------------------------------------
103.04 MPH
Moment(440mm x 12g) = 5280 (42% decr in efficiency)
Inertia (103.04MPH x 12) = 1236 (29% incr in responsiveness)

Hmm! I bought the 440mm and the H60143(haven't installed it yet) in hopes of getting better performance, but if my calculations are right I should stick with the 400mm flybar.???

DAMMIT
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08-01-2007 02:15 AM  13 years ago
Zaneman007

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Texas - USA

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Check out this link. It explains the advantage of a longer flybar.

http://www.w3mh.co.uk/articles/html/csm9-11.htm
Old Guys Rule!
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08-01-2007 02:16 AM  13 years ago
MJWS

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Airdrie, AB - Canada

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Yep I was about to post that as well. Very clear explanations.

Mike
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08-01-2007 02:52 AM  13 years ago
SCADABOY

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Brantford, Ontario, Canada

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Thanks Zaneman007 Looks like I have a Bit of reading to do!

That should keep me busy for a couple of days.....
Scadaboy
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08-01-2007 04:19 AM  13 years ago
Scrub

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Antioch, CA

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Dam RonHill. You must have a seriously big brain (that's a compliment by the way). I've got an easier solution. Put the 440mm flybar on. If it feels better than the stock one leave it on. If it doesn't put the 400 back on.
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08-01-2007 04:51 AM  13 years ago
MJHiscott92504

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James Hiscott , Germany for past 11 months

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?
What?????????
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