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08-01-2007 08:45 AM  13 years ago
BigguyOz

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Forster, New South Wales, Australia

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Eric,
That has got to be an installation issue. There must be some earthing/interference problems. My AP2000 is as placid as a rock..
Tony Stott
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08-01-2007 05:07 PM  13 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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The AP2000 makes my collective jump all over the board. 85 Glitches in a spool up and down.
I would be very suspect of an intermittent connection if the stabilizer seems to work or no connection if it doesn’t. The Heli Command has its sensors physically mounted in the control unit so its connection to the sensors is more reliable. The down side is limited flexibility of placement when both are placed in the same housing.

I can’t stress enough the importance of a good connection between the sensor and the control unit with the APi. This cannot be so, so or you may have an unhappy experience.

The Heli Command may have some minor advantages but it has a huge price disadvantage. I have never used or seen in person the Heli Command in action so I don’t know what other disadvantages it may have. A higher level of complexity comes to mind which usually relates to a lower level of success.
Ace
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08-01-2007 05:56 PM  13 years ago
HiroboEric

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Los Angeles, CA.

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The sensor corrects the swash and all seem to work but when I spool it up the collective starts to dance like an AM radio was controlling it. The cyclic is as steady as a rock though. Just the collective. I have switched out the connectors and lines to the unit and still had no change. Cleaned the connectors and checked for any adverse connections. I even free hung the whole electronics box without any success. I am wondering if I just got a bad unit at this point. Connections are the one thing I know that are intact. I'm using ceramic bearings and the motor is a Hanson 26. Without the AP2000 she works great but with she's collective happy.Eric Pacheco, AirWorksRC.com
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08-01-2007 09:17 PM  13 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Without the AP2000 she works great but with she's collective happy.
Unfortunately, it could be RF that is coming in the receiver on any one of the interconnecting wires. When you remove the APi you are also removing routes for this RF to enter the receiver. Why just the collective? Who knows. But if it is just the collective and not pitch and roll I would be suspicious of what is going into the APi not what is coming out of the APi.

If you have a governor maybe there is an interaction between it and the APi. Changing wire locations can sometimes help.

It could be a vibration that occurs during spool up. When I had an imbalance problem I saw the display go crazy during spool up. It didn’t seem to affect the servos but if it affects the display it is affecting the electrics. Do you see a vibration on spool up that you don’t see at head speed? Just because you don’t see the vibration doesn’t mean it isn’t there. It probably is at a higher frequency and a lower amplitude. The APi may be affected more by the amplitude than the frequency.

Nothing here is gospel, these are just guesses on my part.
Ace
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08-01-2007 10:15 PM  13 years ago
HiroboEric

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Those are good ideas. I don't have a governor installed but I will check the proximity of wires. One thing is I have the wires ran in together in a compartment to keep it looking clean. That could be the issue though.Eric Pacheco, AirWorksRC.com
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08-02-2007 01:59 AM  13 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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Eric has a belt driven tail and I too have experienced this same thing. Was on the collective servo on my Raptor 50, as well. By grounding the tailbox, boom and engine I was able to eliminate the static buildup that was causing the glitching.Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
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08-02-2007 02:01 AM  13 years ago
46Taylorcraft

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AZ

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I can also confirm that grounding the boom can help in certain cases. My Raptor and Logo 24 experienced the same issues until I grounded the boom at the tail case and main frames as well as RX ground.
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08-02-2007 05:14 PM  13 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Eric has a belt driven tail and I too have experienced this same thing. Was on the collective servo on my Raptor 50, as well.
This is very interesting … Static electricity is not predictable. Two different helis yet static electricity affects the same servo?? Are we also talking two different radios and receivers, I wonder?

There are only two ways to ground static electricity. One is to connect to mother earth (impossible), and two is to ground to the source. The second is very difficult because the belt is a dielectric and it is also moving. Grounding as you say may direct the electrons away from what is picking them up so that can be a hit or miss if you don’t know where the static is being picked up. Possibly the grounding turns the boom into an antenna that radiates the static charge to the atmosphere. If this is the case adding a small piece of piano wire 3-4 inches long out the tail will help bleed off the charge, especially with the amount of air passing by the wire from the tail blades.
Ace
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08-02-2007 05:35 PM  13 years ago
Rappy 60

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Paris, France

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Acutally you are not "grounding" in the conventional sense. What you are doing by "grounding" the tail boom to the rest of the heli is making the charge the same across the whole bird. This will eliminate any voltage differentials between parts on the heli that would cause glitches.

Dale
Load "*",8,1
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08-03-2007 02:55 AM  13 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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Tail belts can, for various reasons, act as Van Degraff generators. By connecting the gear of the heli to the rear one can allow the stripped electrons to return to a balanced state.

While in this instance the static affected our collective servos, I've known of others that have seen similar instances in the cyclic as well as tail servos.

As you noted Ace, static is unpredictable.
Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
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Outrage Helicopters
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08-03-2007 05:34 PM  13 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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By connecting the gear of the heli to the rear one can allow the stripped electrons to return to a balanced state.
I agree this must be happening but how? These electrons that are stripped off the belt either have to bleed off to the air or return to the belt. They get stripped off the belt because of mechanical energy. If all you did is ground the frame parts together that would not force the electrons back into the belt so I suspect these electrons are bled off to the air. So my suggestion is to make an antenna to purposely bleed them off to the air passing by the tail. This would be the opposite effect of a lightning rod system.

Keep in mind that it is not the static charge that will affect the radio signals it is the sudden discharge that will occur if the charge between the two oppositely charged parts becomes too great.

Hey, I don’t know if this antenna scheme would work and how effective it would be. I don’t have the problem and I don’t have any instruments that could measure the effect of this theory. But if you get desperate you could try it yourself and maybe get a feeling if it works or not.
Ace
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08-04-2007 03:10 AM  13 years ago
Autoeject

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I believe the belt is stripping electrons from the drive gear and carrying along to the rear of the heli to build up on the tail box(or vise/versa). Just as when you slide out of your car and take a charge along with you. Hold the door as you exit and the charge is returned to the vehicle immediately.Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
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08-04-2007 01:03 PM  13 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Well I believe the greatest amount of charge is created at the other end, the drive end. This is typically where the load is the greatest and friction is the greatest but it would depend on the size of the drive gear. Also the drive end is closer to the electronics that would cause the interference. I don’t suspect that any static discharge at the tail end would bother the radio gear. Grounding the frame parts to the boom allows the electrons to go out through the boom to the tail where they can be blown off by the air passing by. Carbon tail feathers would actually help in this scenario.

The car is a perfect example of the build up of static electricity because the tires prevent the charge from grounding to the earth. In the 50's and 60's they use to use static strips off the frame to discharge to the ground. Seats were mostly plastic and generated a lot of static.
Hold the door as you exit and the charge is returned to the vehicle immediately.
That’s right you are the ground path.
Ace
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08-05-2007 12:43 AM  13 years ago
Rappy 60

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Paris, France

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the boom to the tail where they can be blown off by the air passing by
So by this token, then we can assume that when we cut an extension cord, the electrons just pour out into the air.

The reason why you ground the boom is because you are bringing the frames to the same potential as the boom, hence there will be no current flow. Hence there will be no EMI, which causes glitches. Current flows between objects that have different potentials, hence when you touch the car, you are at a different potential that the car therefore when you touch the car, current flows between you and the car (discharge of the static, you get a shock). If you were to take a volt meter and measure between the frame and ground, you would read a voltage potential, if the boom was connected to the frame, then you would read the same across the boom and frames in reference to ground.

Dale
Load "*",8,1
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08-05-2007 01:58 PM  13 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Tail belts can, for various reasons, act as Van Degraff generators.
As Mark stated here, there is always flow because you have a generator. If your concept was correct you could ground all the frame parts once and they would be at the same potential and not change. But if you constantly generate a charge you have flow. The flow doesn't bother anything otherwise you couldn't drive your servo motors in the first place. It is the high voltage discharge, again and again that gives you interference.

If your extension cord was DC and not AC then you would have electrons bleeding into the air.

What you lack in understanding is that there are always positive and negative ions present in the air. The concentration increases during an electrical storm but even when there is no storm present these ions exist. Look at the dust that collects on your TV screen (tube type) the next day after you cleaned it off. The positive and negative ions will attract the opposite charge. If the frame builds up a negative charge then electrons will jump to the positive ions in the air especially if you encourage them by making a sharp point antenna and force air over it. The hairs of a carbon fiber fin will do this nicely.
Ace
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08-05-2007 04:54 PM  13 years ago
Angelos

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nr Oxford, OX11, UK

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Grounding the frame parts to the boom allows the electrons to go out through the boom to the tail where they can be blown off by the air passing by. Carbon tail feathers would actually help in this scenario.
I almost fell of my chair reading this. And wait until I saw it to my colleagues tomorrow.
What you lack in understanding is that there are always positive and negative ions present in the air.
Ace found antimatter in the air! LOL!

-Angelos
Spartan RC R&D
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08-05-2007 05:07 PM  13 years ago
Rappy 60

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Paris, France

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Ace,

What was I thinking. Of course, you are correct. I should of never doubted you. I never thought of free Ions jumping around in air, makes sense now. Stripping off the electrons and converting them to Ions as the air passes over the boom, its all clear now. Guess Im going to have to re-take that physics class again, maybe its changed since the last time I went. I=V/R

Dale
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08-05-2007 05:15 PM  13 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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I almost fell of my chair reading this. And wait until I saw it to my colleagues tomorrow.
It’s an idea Angelos; I have no way of proving it. Do you have a better one, let’s hear it? If you have a static generator you must have a flow of electrons so please tell us where those electrons go.

I would love to hear your thoughts.

I am no expert on static electricity but I have had to deal with the problem it creates in industrial applications. The suggestions I made come from the solutions that were found. There are companies that make their whole business on eliminating the effects of static electricity. They have instruments that can measure the potential so they know if the technique is working or not. It is not hobby guessing for them.
Ace
What could be more fun?
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08-05-2007 05:21 PM  13 years ago
Rappy 60

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Paris, France

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If your extension cord was DC and not AC then you would have electrons bleeding into the air.
Well here is an easy experiment to do. Get a DC supply, it will "generate" electricity. Now take an amp meter and place it inline on the red wire (thats positive), or use negative if you want to be totally correct as current flows from negative to positive. Now turn on the powersupply and see if you read any current. My bet is you don't which means there is NO flow of electrons, which means there is no "bleeding of electrons" into the air. If that was the case, you would be reading current. I=V/R, thats a hint.

Dale
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08-05-2007 05:26 PM  13 years ago
Angelos

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nr Oxford, OX11, UK

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Static is mainly produced by the moving parts of the tail and will accumulate there. When the potential is high enough it will spark from the boom to the helicopter frames giving interference. By connecting the metal parts together you are giving an easy path for the electrons to flow from one to the other. Thus they will all stay at the same potential and there is no reason for sparks to develop.
I am no expert on static electricity but I have had to deal with the problem it creates in industrial applications. The suggestions I made come from the solutions that were found.
What? Use a fan to blow them off?

-Angelos
Spartan RC R&D
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