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HomeAircraftHelicopterAerial Photography and Video › Yet another Slow Stick For AP Thread
04-04-2009 08:17 PM  9 years agoPost 1521
Burnt Offering

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Winter Wonder Land, Wasilla Alaska

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I agree Jerry, I commend the guy for his hard work. Speaking from experience I know how long it takes to come up with a functional design and keep it light and simple. It is definitly that. My ownly point was that I like to see the tests flights done in a no wind situation, as it gives you a better idea of its true STOL capablities.

American by Birth, Alaskan by the grace of God!!

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04-05-2009 05:30 PM  9 years agoPost 1522
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago, Illinois

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Alright!

I finally git my new motor from BP Hobbies and the 60 amp ESC all "wired up".

Too bad it's too cold out, and windy as hell to give it a go. - ha ha

I like this ESC, it sounds a steady BEEP about every 3 seconds or so if the battery is still plugged in, with the Tx off.

dan

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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04-05-2009 06:11 PM  9 years agoPost 1523
talk the torque

rrApprentice

SA

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I like what he is trying to do but it would be nice to see it in no wind. I think it will still work with the launcher in no wind as it is set in a vertical position which means the wind is not assisting with that until he pushes over a little. The motor has more than 1:1 so I think it will launch well. The big thing here is like the big thing for all of us AP plankers and that is the weight of the camera. I dont see a camera on there when doing that launch and stol tests. Add 400g of camera and video Tx equipment and then let see how it handles :O

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04-06-2009 02:12 AM  9 years agoPost 1524
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova Scotia, Canada

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Hey guys

Just thinking outside of the box, have any of you done anything with gyrocopters?

Just put together fixed pitch head out of some spare raptor parts. I will try it out the next windy day see how much lift it produces.

Here something like what I am talking about.

Here are some gyrocopter videos that may be interesting to you all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Watch at YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Watch at YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Watch at YouTube

Jerry

Hard job competing with gravity.

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04-06-2009 02:44 AM  9 years agoPost 1525
Envision

rrVeteran

MI

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That last video is awesome. There is one guy at our local club that has a gyrocopter, seems pretty hard to control, but, it is an older model too.

I would imagine it would require semi-sym blades to work effeciently. In the last video it looks as though the main rotor blades are powered right up until take off, then it freely spins.

Troy

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04-06-2009 02:56 AM  9 years agoPost 1526
Envision

rrVeteran

MI

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04-06-2009 11:31 AM  9 years agoPost 1527
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova Scotia, Canada

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Troy

You are right most have a small drives off of main engine to pre-spin main rotor for take off. Not required for model size, a hand spin will do. They are from my research easier to fly and sure seem to have allot of lifting power.

Might be a direction to go? Just wonder if there is much vibration from the main rotor?

I will do some test in with this 570mm semi-symmetrical blade set up.
Just need some wind

Hard job competing with gravity.

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04-06-2009 02:34 PM  9 years agoPost 1528
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago, Illinois

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That new model is great!

I hope you have someone standing by to shoot some video footage.

I called several years back on the price of a cheap gyrocopter. He said it would run about 15K with all the extras. ? Sounded like a low figure, but ...

I'd love to have one.

dan

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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04-06-2009 11:34 PM  9 years agoPost 1529
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago, Illinois

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Check out this guys video.

First rate FPV flying with several types of planes.

http://www.vimeo.com/1236260

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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04-08-2009 10:49 AM  9 years agoPost 1530
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

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Hello,

Just a quick update,

I got an eflite BL15 because my LHS didnt have any 480's left (and it takes them literally months to get new stock in), I also got 2 3200mah 7.4V lipo's to power it (Motor and batts weigh 500g total) which is really heavy imho.

Anyway, I was testing it out today as a mono plane, and it tore itself apart when the aluminum mount that was attached to the wings (stupid, stupid!) let go.

I really like helicopters a lot more than planks at this point, but I will re assemble it with an aluminum boom and try again with the mini titan motor on 7.4V, the BL15 is a bit overkill.

Heres a pic or 2 of the bipe config that I canned because it was too flimsy.
Ben,
I had a look at your mount for the BL15... compare it to my mount for the 480
http://s437.photobucket.com/albums/...?albumview=grid

Well an update on my standard SS from the photos link above..
I have made some minor changes to the mount.. using nuts in place of blind nuts that came with the motor.. also added some right and down thrust by packing washers behind the motor mount... added the Flycamone2 under the battery.. CG at 4.25 inches.
Main Boom in 39"/ 1 meter long.. tail feathers were made from 5mm Depron.. rudder slightly increased in size. put another CF rod 1/2" back from the CG toward the TE. Prop APC 11X6 AUW 860gms / 30 ozs.
This really maxed out the 480 ability to handle the SS.. with standard boom and 3mm tail feathers is was 660gms/ ~23 ozs and main boom was stock less 2" from previous heavy nose landing...it flew really well at that weight.
By adding the CF rod it took out the 12 deg dihedral but cause the TE to be a little off slight twist.
On its maiden it took a further 8 feet + it flew well but NOT as good as it was... my first mistake was not to put the heavy landing gear and it spread eagle on landing .. there goes another prop..
I have a BL15 and in this case I believe it would perform better.. the mount and boom is definitely strong enough to that the extra power.
I would have though that the 480 would have handled the 860 gms/ 30 ozs a lot better than it did.. I may need to try an APC 12X6 .. but it will have to have that landing gear improved to handle the weight.
Any suggestion.. based on some of you guys AUW's and running the 480's... I could always put the BL15 on but fly time would be reduce
Any comments or suggestions
cheers
Richard

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04-09-2009 02:45 AM  9 years agoPost 1531
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova Scotia, Canada

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Here's the concept of the Gyrocopter head that I have constructed.

I did some testing in the wind the other day, it produced huge lift from the 570mm semisymmetriical blades.

Watch at YouTube

Watch at YouTube

This is just a mock-up just to get some input from you guys.

Thanks in advance

Jerry

Hard job competing with gravity.

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04-09-2009 05:07 AM  9 years agoPost 1532
Envision

rrVeteran

MI

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You may be coming out with a breakthrough for the gyrocopter guys. Do they even have aileron control? I don't believe they have pitch control either. Please video tape your outside testing too.

Troy

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04-09-2009 05:28 AM  9 years agoPost 1533
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago, Illinois

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I know almost nothing about heli flying.

Is this close to waht your trying to do? Maybe this will inspire you too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ddk1QsUi0s

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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04-09-2009 01:31 PM  9 years agoPost 1534
Envision

rrVeteran

MI

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Here's some numbers (angles) for you from a previous build.

Rotor span = 1m (39.4"
Head type = 2 blade, flybarless using Trex 450 heli components.
Roll control = Swashplate control for roll-axis only. Piezo rate-gyro stabilisation.
Pitch control = Hinged elevator.
Blade chord = 60mm (2.12"
Blade type = Made from plywood and balsa. Glassed near the mounting point.

Target weight = 600 - 650g (21.2 - 23oz)
Rotor disk area = 1220sq"
Target disk loading = 2.5 - 2.7oz/sq

Rotor-mast angle = 10 degrees
Motor downthust = 4 degrees.
Length, front of firewall back to swashplate = 220mm (8.66"
Length, swashplate back to tail surface hinge-line = 575mm (22.64"
Height, wheel axle up to bottom of fuselage = 120mm (4.75"
Height, bottom of fuselage up to center of rotor-hub = 240mm (9.5"
Horizontal stabiliser span = 480mm (18.9"
Horizontal stabiliser area = 82sq"
Horizontal stabiliser airfoil = 3/16" flat plate.
Vertical stabiliser area = 36sq"

Power system
Motor = AXI 2808/24
Propellor = APC 10x5E
Battery = 3S 1500mAh Hyperion VX
Controller = CC Pheonix 35A

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...758&postcount=2

Seems from reading others blade weight is critical.

Troy

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04-11-2009 01:05 AM  9 years agoPost 1535
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova Scotia, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I found this post http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469368 Nice read if you guys are interested, there is more.

Thank you mnowell129 at RCgroup,co

Gyrocopter Questions

1) What is a gyrocopter,autogyro,Autogiro,gyroplane?
A rotary winged aircraft that derives lift from a non powered
rotor(s) and is pulled (or pushed) forward by a conventional engine/propellor.
The names mean the same thing but are various marketing/registered
names for brand name aircraft. (all Kleenex is tissue, but not all
tissue is Kleenex....)

2) Are they hard to fly?
Somewhere between an advanced 4 channel airplane and a helicopter.
Typically they are considered not beginner models.

3) Are they hard to design? Don't I just put some helicopter blades
on top of my airplane?
YES and NO, respectively. Most heli blades are the wrong airfoil
and the wrong aspect ratio for gyrocopter blades.
http://www.aerobalsa.com is a good source for gyrocopter blades.

4) I have an old fuselage I want to convert to an autogyro, what
do you suggest?
Not to. Build a gyro from plans or a kit first to learn the different
flight characteristics. Then set out to design your own.

5) What are the controls?
Several types:
Fixed rotor with rudder and elevator control.
This is very difficult with a single rotor, very
easy with a dual (side by side) rotor.
A tilting spindle cyclic control rotor ("direct control"
that tilts for aileron and used rudder and elevator.
A tilting spindle cyclic control rotor ("direct control"
that tilts for aileron and elevator with a regular rudder.
A rotor that uses "helicopter" type controls like a swashplate.

6) What kind of power do I need?
Generally thrust needs to be greater than weight.

7) What kind of "wing" loading?
The disk loading is the weight of the model divided by
the area of the whole rotor disk. ~2-3 Ounces/sq foot for
two bladed systems, ~3-4 ounces per sq for 3 or 4 bladed systems.

8) Are there kits? Plans?
Yes
The Slow-G twin http://www.slow-g.com/
The PtGyro family : http://www.flyingbalsa.com
G3PO,BEGi and GT17: http://www.mickeynowell.com
Several from Arizona Autogyro : http://www.autogyro-rc.com/
The DAG01 http://home.att.net/~imsofaman/dave...rc_homepage.htm
Whopper
the plans:
http://www.vth.de/Modellbau/FMT/dow...t_downloads.asp
direct link to part1 and 2 of the plan:
http://www.vth.de/Modellbau/FMT/dow...Whopper%201.pdf
http://www.vth.de/Modellbau/FMT/dow...Whopper%202.pdf

link to the thread at rcgroups:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487131

link to german thread incl. comments of creator:
http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thr...c7b3a355edcd0e9

Mini/micromum
here's the link to the latest version of the Micromum plans:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...79&postcount=69

and this one is for the Minimum:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=543196
Twirl : http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...83&postcount=63

9) Where is more information?
Almost any question you might ask has already been answered
at one of these places. Use the search feature to
look for specific words like "collective pitch" or
"direct control" or "advancing blade" and you will
find many questions and answers.
http://www.autogyro.com/
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_191/tt.htm
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=224
http://www.runryder.com/f59p1/
http://rchangout.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=113

10) Which ones are the easiest to get to fly?
The Slow-G, Twirl, Whopper, and any of the plans for the dual rotor designs like the Spin Doctor from flying models.

11) I've designed a scale Bensen/Brock/Little Nellie and
it won't fly. What's wrong?
Gyrocopters don't scale well, namely the mast angle has to
change, the blade pitch has to be negative rather than
positive and the control systems have to change to
allow for the increased control response from the rotor
when they are scaled down to model size.

12) I got a ____ from a garage sale, should I try to fly it?
Probably not. Build a modern design, learn to fly it, then
decide if you should attempt the _____ you got from the sale.

13) I really want to build a scale _______, how should I start?
Build a known design first, learn to fly it, then re-evaluate.
Gyrocopters really demand a different (not particularly harder,
just different) skill level, especially
with regard to the left transmitter stick (throttle and rudder).
Trying to learn this on an unknown new aircraft is challenging.

14) What is the best way to get started?
Build a kit or a known good design appropriate for your skill
level. If you are an beginner/new airplane pilot try a twin rotor first, Twirl, Slow-G or Whopper.
If you have beyond beginner skills with airplanes the PT Gyros
are great. If you have advanced skill and/or have flown helicopters
G3PO and BEGi are good performers. None of these models are appropriate
for rank beginners to R/C. The models from Arizona are more scale
oriented if that is your desire.

15) Are there some gyrocopter fly-ins?
Yes
Generally in March at Spring Hill Florida,
September in Muncie Indiania and
new this year Lakeland Florida in ??
InterEx http://www.inter-ex.com/ (Thanks to Stephan B)

16) When I try to take off and I pull up elevator my model just
rolls over on it's back and does the funky chicken, what's wrong?
Your rotor has not reached full "autorotation". This is the condition
where the rotor is not just windmilling slowly but turning at a very
high rate. In this condition the centrifigal forces are high enough
for the rotor to be stable and it is producing enough lift to fly
and keep it self spinning. It is important to get the rotor into
autorotation before flying and allow the model to fly on its own
without up elevator.

17) What are the different rotor configurations like?
Single uncontrolled rotor : Very difficult to get to fly well. Requires
careful design to get trimmed. Controlled by rudder/elevator and throttle (RET),
or in the smallest case throttle and rudder only. Has the least manuverability.

Dual uncontrolled rotor : Easiest to construct and get flying. Controlled by
RET. Stable and manuverable, capable of loops and rolls. Poor control at low
airspeed since the rotor is capable of making lift at almost no airspeed but
the control surfaces lose effectiveness. No control at all in vertical descent.

Single Tilting Spindle Rotor : Requires a little more attention in building.
Much more rotor control especially at low airspeed. More sensitive controls and
capable of aerobatics (loops, rolls, stall turns, etc.) Good control in
vertical descents. Most scale appearing rotor head. Easiest to hand fabricate.
The rotor is slightly unstable in model size so these models have horizontal
stabs to make the aircraft stable. Need heavy duty (metal gear) servos.

Single "Heli" Rotor : More complicated head design, requires attention
to detail in assembly of the rotor head. Very stable rotor so
model doesn't need horizontal stab. Very manuverable, especially at low
airspeeds. No special servo requirements. Some parts must be commercially
purchased.

Hybrids : There are combination designs, such as a tilting spindle head
with a flybar. These possess some of the qualities of both types of models.

18) Why aren't there any scale "Bensen" type gyrocopters?
The bensen style rotor head becomes unstable in model form, mainly because
it has to spin much faster and has less mass. The controls get too sensitive
for a human to fly, much like an airplane with such a high roll rate that
you can't keep it level. The same problem happens with model helicopters
and this is the reason the model helicopters have flybars, to tame the
high control rates that don't exist in full sized aircraft. This principle
can be illustrated by trying to balance a broom in the palm of your hand
and then trying to balance a 1/10 scale broom in your hand.

19) Why do model rotor blades have to be set to negative incidence while full sized gyrocopters have positive incidence?
The lift to drag ratio (L/D) of small airfoils is much worse than bigger airfoils due to "Reynolds Number" effects. Autorotation is only achieved at close to the best L/D for the airfoil which is much lower (at negative incidence relative to the rotor shaft) angles than full sized. The rotor blade still has a positive
angle of attack with respect to the air since the whole rotor is tilted back.
This also explains the model heli blades are poorer performers than purpose
built gyrocopter blades with high L/D ratios.

20) Why do models have a greater mast angle than full sized?
Same problem as #19, little airfoils are less efficient and need a different
angle of attack.

21) What is the advancing blade? Asymmetric Lift?
This is the condition where the forward going blade is getting
more wind than the one going backwards causing a difference (asymmetry)
in lift. If you do nothing about it the advancing blade will
rise up in front (due to gyroscopic precession of the rotor)
trying to flip the aircraft up vertically. To fly successfully
you have to apply cyclic pitch so the advancing blade has less angle of
attack than the retreating blade. The cyclic pitch can be either "flapping"
with a flapping hinge, or "feathering" with a feathering hinge. Un-controlled
rotors use flapping hinges, or in the case of dual rotors let the asymmetric lift
cancel each other out. Controlled rotors, tilting spindle or swashplates, use
feathering to cancel asymmetric lift. This is a slight amount of down elevator
in either case. This is an advanced topic with lots more to read in the references
above.

22) Where should the CG be? What is the "hang angle"?
The CG should be directly below the center of the rotor when it is
placed horizontally, or slightly ahead of that with models that have
a horizontal stab. This gave rise to the concept of "hang angle",
method that describes how far down the model hangs when hung from
the rotor. Generally the hang angle is roughly the mast rake angle,
which results in the CG being centered under the center of the rotor.

23) What's the difference between a puller or pusher layout?
The puller results in a shorter (height) model that has better ground handling.
The pusher layout is harder in model form because model propellers
are longer relative to the model size than full size. This makes getting
the overall proportions more difficult and getting the thrust angles
more challenging. The pusher layout is shorter in length which worsens the
stability, this makes the more sensitive model rotors even more
sensitive. Most models, expecially for beginners, are puller layout.

24) Can you hand launch?
Yes. Most models hand launch well, especially with a slight breeze.

25) How about high winds? Crosswinds?
High winds are ok as long as they aren't higher than the max airspeed
which is ususally pretty low. Downwind turns and downwind passes
tend to get the gyro really moving and need attention to the throttle.
Crosswinds are the worst possible condition for gyrocopters. Rise
of Ground takeoffs are possible if you can line up roughly (10-20 degrees)
with the wind. Otherwise it's best to hand launch directly in the wind.
Landings with crosswinds are usually not a problem, just land into the wind
because you have no rollout, so you can land across most runways easily.

26) Engine out situations?
Tilting spindle and swashplate controlled models have full control. You have
a limited glide angle (about 1:1, or 45 degrees down), but you can flare
to a zero rollout touchdown. Elevator controlled models are usually
less controllable with power off and tend to be built light so they
can just descend vertically to a "plop" landing. A little forward
speed reduces the sink rate.

27) Touch and goes?
Easily.

28) Does collective pitch help?
Not much. It has been done and doesn't add much to the overall
flyability, although it does reduce the spin up time. The added
complexity is for advanced modellers.

29) What about pre-rotation?
Most models use the "hand flip" method. Some models have
used a drill or other motor to spin up. There are no models
that have built in pre-rotation, but I'm working on it.

Hard job competing with gravity.

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04-11-2009 06:49 PM  9 years agoPost 1536
Gary Evans

rrNovice

Mesa, Az, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I have seen a couple of home builts with pre-rotators at a local flying field. As I recall they used a separate motor.

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04-12-2009 07:04 PM  9 years agoPost 1537
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova Scotia, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Here good idea for set up trust line. I like the tail design too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Watch at YouTube

Take off no one at the controls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Watch at YouTube

Heli vers Gyrocopter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Watch at YouTube

Hard job competing with gravity.

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04-12-2009 08:59 PM  9 years agoPost 1538
Tritan

rrApprentice

Sweden

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Nice!
I've always wanted to try an autogyro. Where can I buy the one you have hanging from the ceiling?

Thanks,
tritan

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04-13-2009 12:50 AM  9 years agoPost 1539
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Anybody tried these in RC Paraplanes ... I'd like to fly a real one personally fixed wing was my thing years ago.. but I don't fly anymore, only RC...
.. at least it has a chute interesting what payload it could handle ?? Just need to get a hold of some plans
The start is good.. there is a section at about 2min mark and the landing at the end... REAL small....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyWmRsmrFyI

Watch at YouTube

Richard

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04-13-2009 01:19 AM  9 years agoPost 1540
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova Scotia, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Plans coming soon

check here

http://home.att.net/~imsofaman/wba.htm

here is some build pics

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/atta...hmentid=2408018

Hard job competing with gravity.

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