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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterAudacity Models P6 Pantera - Tiger 50 › Stacked frame Pantera 50
05-26-2007 10:09 PM  13 years ago
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ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

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Stacked frame Pantera 50
Folks, let me ask you something. The new Trex600N is coming online with a stacked frame contruction using carbon fiber (the same basic design can be produced in aluminum of G10, of course).

Since the Pantera uses bearing blocks, it's not all that hard to produce a stacked frame version of the Pantera - we can be original and call it a Pro, or some such.

The question is, do enough of my customers have the desire to have a carbon fiber stacked frame helicopter to negate the virtues of the simple to assemble, and genuinely tough, plastic side frame model (as an available upgrade)? What would you pay extra for such a model? And do you seriously want a torque tube - even though it means extra money each and every time you have a boom bending event since it's destroyed along with the boom? I mean it doesn't matter to me because I want to build what you weant to pay for. So if you'll pay I'll build it!

This is an informal poll. Tell me what you think, and while you're at it, tell me what you think it would be worth. It's not a trivial exercise to create a stacked frame Pantera, but it's not all that hard either since this is how models are prototyped. Frankly, it never occured to us people would want to build prototype style helicopters vs. injected molded plastic, but hey, we're here to serve you!

Anyway, unlike the giant companies, you can reach out and touch me pretty easily (I'm the owner of Audacity Models). So here's your chance to speak up and influence a product. Share your thoughts please.

John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745
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05-26-2007 10:46 PM  13 years ago
AzHyper

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Peoria, Az.

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John - can you get your product to come in around 7 lbs by going to a stacked frame arrangement? What about a friction free torque tube tail drive? I believe there is a market for "mini 90's" if you can deliver these attributes and still keep the cost down. The first time one of the new Align 600N fan club breaks a carbon frame half they will be disappointed to spend $65 or whatever they cost. I think G10 is the right material to begin with and you're heading in the right direction.
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05-27-2007 12:55 AM  13 years ago
rsalazar

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Florida, USA

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Hi John!!

I would like to have carbon Fiber main frame for the Pantera. As long as they are a little thicker that the T-Rex 600N. The Main Frame for the TRex 600N are 1.6mm.

The cost of the TRex 600N frames are $65 per frame.

This is what they look like

John maybe the ones for the pantera 50 could be 2-3 mm of thickness.
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05-27-2007 01:42 AM  13 years ago
alcastan

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Cancun, Mexico

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John, I would buy it too, in carbon fiber and better if its 3 mm like all 90 helis, by the way I´m finishing my carbon fiber frames for my tiger, but they are not stacked, the design is like the Aurora from Avant and they are 3mm I made all the bearing blocks, and spacers from CNC machined aluminium, I can upload photos on Monday so you can check them, and tell me how you like them.

Carbon Fiber is not that expensive, and much better than G10, I have someone that is doing for me 3mm CF plates of 36" x 36" and they cost me like $120 at most and you can cut them with a CNC router, you get like 4 frames from each plate, and still have some for making fins and other parts, by the way if you have doubts about the quality of the CF, is the same used for formula cars, one friend has a team on the formula renault, that has Reynard Cars, made on England and when they have a crash, the repairs are made on the same shop that is making me the plates.

I think 1.6 mm is for keeping costs down, and to be weak, so they break very easily and you have to buy a $65 frame, now that´s what I call bussines!

Alejandro,
Momma used to say, life's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get!
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05-27-2007 04:27 AM  13 years ago
Eury

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Dover NH USA

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I wanna see pics of that when you get it done, Alejandro! That's an impressive project. I don't see a big problem with using thinner CF, the key is to design it well so everything ties together, that's where it gets the strength and stiffness from.

I personally prefer G10, but it's not blingy, so people don't buy it even though it's superior in many ways. And let's face it, this is 99% a bling upgrade, not a performance one.
Nick Crego

Citizen #0168
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05-27-2007 05:45 AM  13 years ago
The Dude II

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IN - USA

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Force = Mass x Acceleration

If we lighten the Pantera a bit, it will be quicker on the response.

And after seeing the electric Trex600 back a few months ago...WOW! I'm eager to see a 600N...don't expect it to be as good as the electric...but at least it should be able to fly for more than 5 minutes.

I would gladly equip my 2 Panteras with stacked frames if we are talking 5 ~ 8oz lighter. Current frame is 15.38 oz.

$50 a set seems reasonable for an upgraded (AKA lighter) frame.

I'm already at $25 for CF boom, $25 for CF boom supports, $4 for CF push-rod, $30 for CF tail blades and $25 for a CF skeletal Vertical Fin. So $109 in CF parts for the aft end of the Pantera (or Tiger 50 too) and this buys me 2.5 oz in weight reduction. Which now in order to maintain CG on the main shaft, I need to look into a lighter battery solution.

My ready to fly weight is 8lb 4 oz...dry....9lb 4 oz wet.
OS 50 Hyper with Pro-muffler
vBlade 600mm
VSE 90mm T/R
Relion 2600 & Arizona reg
4 9252s
GY-611
GV-1
3oz hopper
Futaba 8ch PCM receiver
CF Tail Fin - no horizontal

Just saw some actual weights on the Trex600N...in the 7lb 1oz to 7lb 4oz range...this is where I'll be headed as soon as I catch-up my skills to the capabilities of my Pantera rigs.

Torque tube drive...if it is lighter & requires less energy from the engine (meaning more energy for the blades) then I'd consider that too.

Keep this in mind, I'm not real eager to buy a 90-size machine due to the initial/cost of up-keep and the thirsty power plants. 50 -size ships can stand a bit of improvement.

Look at the goal this way: (and we're keeping the math simple...no friction and engines produce the specified HP, etc...)
Benchmark
90 size ship at 3.3HP (2458 WATTS) @ 12.5lbs (wet)...196WATTS of power per pound.

My Pantera
50 size ship at 1.9HP (1415 WATTS) @ 9.25lbs(wet)...152 WATTS of power per pound.

The Align 600N
50 size ship at 1.9HP (1415 WATTS) @ 8.25lbs(wet)...188 WATTS of power per pound.

JB, you've produced 3 great little 50-size helis (Tiger 50, Tiger 50 MKII & Pantera) in my minds eye... and Align has just raised the bar for Performance vs. $$ in the 50-class.
What can you manufacture and deliver to the street at $549 to $599.
lotta ins, lotta outs
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05-27-2007 02:01 PM  13 years ago
uragem

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Indianapolis, IN - USA

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You're spot on! Dude IIIndy Jeweler
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05-27-2007 02:21 PM  13 years ago
rcadd1ct

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Richardson, Texas

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You need the torque tube option for the scale guys.

It is easier to plug in a shaft than loop a belt in a fuse.

Cost should be in line with align's TT upgrade.
-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!
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05-27-2007 03:00 PM  13 years ago
JKL

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Florida

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I think a G10 and carbon side frame uprade is a wonderful idea. It will definitely keep you in the 50 hunt. Please do not forget about the tail fins. I will comment on this some more later as I am in the process of building a Pantera for the local Hobby shop and will be giving it a thorough work out once complete.

I know that with power plants, eccpm controls and all things being equal that weight truly makes the difference in getting the heli to stop, change directions and move again quickly. However, in contest flying and hovering on a windy day a heavier model will sit in the wind and is much nicer to fly. It will penetrate the wind better once in motion and keep the momentum longer. With this being said, I think that the next best step for this model is to offer a lighter option.

A lighter option could help some scale models out also. If they were on the heavy side or people wanted to change things on the frame like upper and lower tail drive train and boom location, they could. Last minute thought.
Jay
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05-27-2007 05:55 PM  13 years ago
topspindok

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Seattle WA 98144

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News for Pantera flyers in PNW
RCHOBBYSPORTS.COM WILL BE CARRYING KITS AND FULL SUPPORT PARTS IN THE SEATTLE AREA.

TOPSPINDOK
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05-28-2007 06:22 AM  13 years ago
djMidnight

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Petaluma, California

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I'd probably buy carbon or G10 frames. Less flex and less weight would make the heli more responsive, so assuming both were true I'd do it. $50 - $60 seems reasonable. Much more than double the cost of the plastic frames would make me think about it more.

I'm not sure I'd personally do the torque tube - I haven't had any trouble with the belts, and since the tail usually goes on a crash, I'd likely stay stock to keep crash prices down. That said, I don't crash too often anymore, so if the upgrade netted a decent amount more engine power from lower friction I might try it.

Jason
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05-28-2007 06:56 PM  13 years ago
Walleye

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Washington, PA

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I have yet to max out the good old plastic... I for one would not be willing to spend the extra money for CF unless it reduced the weight enough to make a noticable difference to advanced novices such as myself... now if I happened to break a frame, then maybe but not unless I have to.

It maybe that you will need to do so if the TR Nitro takes off... but then again it is more expensive... if the price were at about the same price point as the TRN then why not, especially if you wont go broke doing it.
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05-28-2007 08:25 PM  13 years ago
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

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Personally, the very idea of the 50-class heli is a "beater" with which to get good, i.e. without breaking the bank. So the whole concept of the expensive stacked frame 50s is anathema to the very principles of a cheap, good flying model, that's quick to build, and easy to repair model!

But, hey, that's just me. Anyway, the reason for asking is because I'm afraid of going broke if I "don't" offer what the customers want! So I am asking, i.e. keeping my ear to the ground.

John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745
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05-28-2007 08:30 PM  13 years ago
rcadd1ct

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Richardson, Texas

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Listening to customers is a very good step to not going broke.-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!
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05-28-2007 09:04 PM  13 years ago
kingair

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Utah - USA

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So the whole concept of the expensive stacked frame 50s is anathema to the very principles of a cheap, good flying model, that's quick to build, and easy to repair model!
a·nath·e·ma Pronunciation[uh-nath-uh-muh] –noun, plural -mas.
1. a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2. a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.

Is your ear really to the ground if you disagree so strongly? How could you get behind such a design? In writing it sounds like you want to produce a product the people want. Between the lines it sounds like you look down on anyone who would consider a design different from your ideal.
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
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05-29-2007 03:44 AM  13 years ago
CWALDO123

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Germantown , Tn - Shelby

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Hey Walleye Im you you pal.. since im a long way from pro. just doing standard stuff I dont think I need carbons UNLESS they are about the same price. As far as weight I can hang a brick on mine and still loop & roll LOL ..Just a little slower wich could be a good thing. (Quote) Honey I don't know It all happend so quick !!! Must have been a radio glitch !!!yea thats it a radio glitch.....Hirobo Evo 50 ,Jr9303 ((( Are Those Things Hard To Fly ?? Nah !! Snicker )))
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05-29-2007 04:11 AM  13 years ago
ole

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South East Minnesota

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Although it is a good thing to reduce weight. And that will be the best reason to buy special frames. But the good side affect is that it looks cool. If you build it it will sell. I suggest something like the Fury for the radio tray. As for 50's being beaters, and learning tools. in the whole realm of RC that is correct, but to individuals not wanting to fly a $2000+ heli, a 50 is top of the food chain, and things that will make it fly better, will be added.
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05-29-2007 04:18 AM  13 years ago
shuohan

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Maryland

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I think whether John wants to or not, he needs to stay with the "trend" to keep alive. CF/G10 framed heli's will be perceived as better performing than plastic. If he comes out with one soon, I'd certainly be interested.

I agree 50 size helis are good practice helicopters. Regardless, helicopters like the 600 dollar 600n are not that terrible a deal. You'd be hard pressed to upgrade any current 50 with the same equipment for $200 or so. It's a greater initial investment but I believe repair costs overall will be cheaper than any other 50. Also, I've never crashed a nitro hard enough to break main frames.

Right now everyone is focused on the 600n pro, but when that $410 version comes with belt driven tail and G10 frames, it'll be hard to justify getting some other 50's around the same price. Now I feel the Pantera head is just as good if not better than the Trex head (especially if he could just throw in a metal hub stock). If John can get a G10 version out for $400 to $450 it'll be very competitive and quite possibly better performing than the lower end 600n.

For the torque tube, I agree with you guys, that's just not necessary. If you want the ultimate performance go get a Vibe or Synergy. That should probably be left as a 70 dollar upgrade. The performance gained with a TT just isn't worth it for a "practice" heli.

Anyways John, good luck, post some photos of your prototype!
Shuohan
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05-29-2007 04:55 AM  13 years ago
CWALDO123

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Germantown , Tn - Shelby

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Hey shuohan .....whats up dude. I'm still flying that ole beather I got from you and loving it . I always seem to grab it 1st off the bench. Gotta get a pantera soon.

Hirobo Evo 50 ,Jr9303 ((( Are Those Things Hard To Fly ?? Nah !! Snicker )))
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05-29-2007 05:07 AM  13 years ago
shuohan

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Maryland

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That's a nice helicopter you've got there . Wish I never sold it. For my 50 size, I went to a Raptor Titan (picked up cheap), much crappier than the Evo, then sold that and am now waiting for a 600n to show up at my LHS this week. Hope my old Evo is still kicking butt!Shuohan
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