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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Manufacturers read this! I'm sick of not getting manuals.
05-24-2007 10:34 PM  13 years ago
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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I see the marketing point of the box graphics, sure it moves on a retail shelf as a printed box. How about plain box for shipped products?

Last heli I ordered came double boxed, plain for shipping, and inside came the heli in another fancy box, I threw both away.

I am not trying to debate either side, however, I do see good/bad with both, and for me, would like to figure out what is a good compromise between the two.
The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.
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05-24-2007 11:31 PM  13 years ago
Spitfire_mk5

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Canada

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Hmm has anyone seen a minair box? Plane white cardboard with a large sticker on it (unless they have changed it in recent years). They seem to do alright.

Personnally I don't care if it comes with a paper or digital manual, but prefer properly drafted CAD plans to the trend of videos etc. I don't want to see someone building it: I want to know what length of bolt goes in the 3rd hole down when it comes time to rebuild the machine -- the first build is ussually simple anyways due to the packaging. Its when you have the whole thing torn down with one big pile of bolts that you need decent drawings.
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05-24-2007 11:55 PM  13 years ago
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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I see the marketing point of the box graphics, sure it moves on a retail shelf as a printed box. How about plain box for shipped products?
Many times it is actually less expensive to have ONE supplier providing a product even if that product costs just a little bit more per unit. That way you do not have to stock, keep, track, ship, and order TWO different types of boxes.
Hmm has anyone seen a minair box? Plane white cardboard with a large sticker on it (unless they have changed it in recent years). They seem to do alright.
Minair has a following. Put the same product in two different boxes and the flashier box will almost always get picked first. This is why companies spend so much on packaging. Now for a good number of us it would not matter...We want what is inside the box...But I bet that even with most of us if we had to choose between two equal products and one had a nice wrapper, we would pick the pretty one.
Personnally I don't care if it comes with a paper or digital manual, but prefer properly drafted CAD plans
I agree, I find heli plans to be lacking in many areas...I just don't see not being printed as a big deal. And I think it is the way of the future.

My GF's car came with the manual on CD.
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05-25-2007 12:05 AM  13 years ago
Yug

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UK. Herts

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The less paper we use the better. I much prefer to keep manuals and stuff as files on a HD. More paperwork just clutters things up and wastes resources. Yep, I know a CD requires resources to make, so it would be even better if one could simply download the files. Packaging - the amount of it really p!sses me off nowdays. All these little plastic bags Just shove everything in one bag and be done with it.
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05-25-2007 02:40 AM  13 years ago
bigdad390

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East. Liverpool, Ohio

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The less paper we use the better
Why?, trees are a renewable resource. Petrolium products and other materials used to make cds and computers are not. Besides if you dont want a paper manual, you can always recycle it or compost it to provide food for more trees.
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05-25-2007 03:08 AM  13 years ago
little

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Harmony, MN U.S.

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funniest post i've read all week! have to admit though, shouldn't have to have a computer to assemble a model helicopter. these things are complex machines, but it's not rocket science. And second, I have to bring enough crap to the field, I don't want to have to bring a computer for a quick reference guide. I'll stick to the paper manual and keep the computer for checking updates.

Just my 2 cents.
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05-25-2007 08:23 AM  13 years ago
MolokaiBoy

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Lahaina, Maui,Hawaii USA

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When you bought that new car did it have a manual in it? I think it did.
When you buy a new power tool, does it come with a manual? Yes
Does your new camera come with a manual? Yes
Your new DX7? Yes
A new Tv? Yes

Point is so many products sold in the world today alot of which comes with an owners manual, so why not helis?
But I bet that even with most of us if we had to choose between two equal products and one had a nice wrapper, we would pick the pretty one.
Good point but most anyone would pick the box thats got that toy inside no matter what the box looks like. They'll see that little picture of a toy in the corner and grab that box. hehehehe

Aloha
Les
Maui RC Modeler's, Big Island RC Helis, http://www.facebook.com/mauirc
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05-25-2007 01:59 PM  13 years ago
Jimmi

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Southern Ca. U.S.A.

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Yes most products have manuels, but I have seen manuels that a picture would of helped more. I have seen manuels that barely helped at all and made me wonder how million dollar companies could not have a proper translation done on them let alone have one. You can make millions on selling your products but you cannot come up with something very basic and simple to understand. How many of you out there ran into manuels that you could use for toilet paper? As a matter of fact I was building two computer desks and one of the manuels I had I threw it in the garbage. JimmiA computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
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05-25-2007 02:02 PM  13 years ago
Eury

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Dover NH USA

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Jimmi, you need to buy a Logictech 6100 gyro if you want to see an example of a manual gone bad. I think they must have gotten the guy who got the worst grades in his English class to translate.Nick Crego

Citizen #0168
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05-25-2007 02:30 PM  13 years ago
Carey Shurley

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Orlando, FL - USA

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let your voice be heard

MA is polling on this question on their site
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05-25-2007 05:50 PM  13 years ago
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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When you bought that new car did it have a manual in it?
Yes, it was ON A CD!
Point is so many products sold in the world today alot of which comes with an owners manual, so why not helis?
The Nrex comes with a manual, you just do not like the medium but it is there.
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05-25-2007 11:59 PM  13 years ago
X-Cellant

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Redding Calif.

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I also like to see printed manuals for building. It is also nice to get manuals for old equipment off the net. The manufacturs should give us what we like, not force us to submit.Dangerous Dave
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05-26-2007 12:25 AM  13 years ago
James McFaden

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Denton, TX

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Don't care about the manuals.

Just want to know where I can get some of that bumpy foam.

Great idea.

Jim
JimDTO
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05-26-2007 08:39 AM  13 years ago
Jimmi

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Southern Ca. U.S.A.

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Thanks for the heads up on the logitech eury I think when your doing A translation from one language to another there worlds apart. Case in point I was doing a translation for a website and I was going to a translation site from english to spanish and when I was translating it back to english it didn't even sound right. It sounded like I was retarded and the wording was out of whack. You may get a close translation of what there saying but believe me its not word to word its like one word to one sentence. So I had to get my spanish girlfriend to help me out of the mess I got into. We finally put it together but I learned that when translating something you need for someone to look it over carefully or it won't sound right or make sense for that matter. I think that may be part of the problem, Like you mentioned. If your lenguistics or grades were not your fortay, at least let someone thats a qualified translater do the job. JimmiA computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing
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05-26-2007 03:20 PM  13 years ago
MasterCrasher

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Not sure.

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I've never NOT had a manual but some manuals simply suck, whats the point? All I have to say is thank God for the internet.
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05-26-2007 09:45 PM  13 years ago
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

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I own Audacity Models. And I wrote the manual for my Pantera and made it available online instead of on paper (this is the "last" helicopter Eury spoke of, i.e. prior to his TRex 600N). And Eury told me he hated it then, and I agreed, but there's more than simple economics coming into play.

For example, my previous helicopter, the Tiger 50, has a rather nice printed manual. One so good that one magazine said . . .

"Heck, if you slapped a price tag on the front and made arrangements with Amazon.com, this manual could easily be passed off as a Beginner's Guide to R/C helis. The guys at Audacity Models hit a home run here!"
– Ashley Lightfoot, Model Helicopter Technique magazine, Issue #45

. . . but guess what? No sooner had that 70-odd page manual gone to print than a customer called to point out a better way to mount the tail rotor servo! The fact I'd only been looking at that model for 18 months, and spent the better part of 45 days creating the manual meant nothing because it only took one set of fresh set of eyes to spot something, which should have been obvious (and lots of helicopter modelers helped proof that manual it too). Helicopter modelers are a smart group of people and we learn from them, and to date, the addendum "page" for the Tiger has grown to 5 pages! Worse still, people HATE these addendum pages - I gets lots of negative comments about them.

Further to the issue of expense; to date over 1700 Tigers have been sold. Should I toss out 3300 Tiger manuals and print another 5000? Did you know it costs the same to print 500 of these as 5000? These manuals are printed on a press, on 12x19 paper (double sided), then cut, folded, and stapled . . . they're not a trivial expense - we're talking waaay more than a "couple" of bucks.

Meanwhile, the updated Tiger 50 (the Tiger 50 MkII) sells for the same $279.99 the previous version did and guess what? Instead of spending money on a new manual I improved the model and held the price the same. Examples of improvements are one-piece tail rotor grips with radial "and" a pair of thrust bearings. Of course, I could have printed a new manual and left the two-piece grips and double ball bearings instead. Did I do wrong? Should I have raised the price?

As for the reference to "multimedia" in the online manual. Depsite very nice isometric drawings as part of our manuals, and explicit instructions for the assembling of, for example, the thrust bearings in the rotor head grips, we nonetheless would receive 'lots' of calls about them. So we made a short (3-minute) video showing how to assemble the grips and embedded it into the manual (page 26). Interestingly, calls on this subject have dropped to zero! I'm the producer of modelSPORT video magaizne as well, but this 3-minute video was primitive by comparison to one of our DVDs, but it did the job nicely!

So when the decision came to do the Pantera manual, I knew there would be disatisfaction with an online manual. But it was pretty much a no-brainer and we went online with it instead of paper (and offering the manuals on CDs is the same issue, they get obsolete with changes and need to be thrown away).

Also, there is the safety aspect. What if a safety issue were to be discovered? Do we depend on an errata or addemdum page, which we "know" some people never look at? Can we responsibly do this? With our online manual you always get the very latest manual available. Will it be perfect? Not yet . . . but already it's better than if we had printed it. Why? Because there have been three major updates since it was put online in November 2006!

So Eury, and others, who prefer paper, I feel what you are saying, believe me! But I have a company to run and sometimes I make decisions, which aren't popular. And I'm a big boy - I know these decision will cost me some customers - but in the end, I have to do what I feel is right. In short, I'm doing the best I can for the most people, and I am the guy making these decisions. So if you don't like it, pick up the phone and tell me about it because I can be called to task via the phone, fax, or even online here on RunRyder for an explanation about pretty much anything to do with my product.

Finally, I'd like to make two points. First, I am the author of my product manuals. They are NOT translations (though if you don't like my southern english you're out of luck). Second, I recently noticed Circuit City selling brand spanking new Hewlet-Packard LaserJet printers for 99 bucks, so is this really that big an issue folks?

If you're curious:
Tiger 50 manual
Pantera 50 manual

My 2¢

John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745
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05-26-2007 10:36 PM  13 years ago
lightningrc

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UK

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I would like ethier one ??

My new 600N did not even include the stinking cd !!!! , theres loads of problems even with the online manual , for instance it tell you to screw the both carbon side plates together and clamp up the bearing blocks , on the next page it then gives you the tip to use a main shaft to align the bearing blocks , little bit late for the tip !!!!!!

Luckly I had built the E version so had a spare main shaft ready , but no good for the first time builder.

Also no reference to getting the servos at 90 degrees and pitch at 0 etc , no link measurements or servo horn measurements .

Thread lock and grease turned up in a bag it said to open after 1/3 through the build which was needed from the start !!!!!

I now need parts for my new model , what a joke , none any where in the world !!

Nice heli but align need to slow down and get things right before releasing there stuff on the market.
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05-27-2007 01:56 AM  13 years ago
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

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Well, this may sound strange coming from a competitor, but cut Align some slack, folks! Frankly, it's a major undertaking to release a new model and believe me when I say it's always the case with a new product that we are working as rapidly as possible to release it. For what it's worth, we had some teething pains with our Pantera 50 as well, which fortunately are completely resolved now . . . and this is a normal part of the process. That said, and bearing in mind I have a dog in this fight, I remain hopeful our Pantera 50 will be judged to stack up well against the 600N - and while only time will tell, I have confidence in modelers here on RunRyder to tell it like it is.

My 2¢

John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745
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05-27-2007 04:40 AM  13 years ago
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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John Beech
The more I read form you, the more I agree.

Hell, just put it online...The videos are a nice touch.

Looking forward to flying a Pantera if we ever get off our butt and build it (been busy with my new Nrex)....I may take it home next week to make sure it gets done.
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12-06-2007 08:09 AM  13 years ago
lordraptor1

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armore oklahoma, usa all the way

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my .02 is this GIVE ME THE $$$$ printed manual. you are not going to make the kit cheaper for leaving it out ( you may even make it more expensive and have a lame reason for it) anyway so put it in. i have looked at 3 different heli kits lately and all of them are the same price at my lhs, the only differences are 1 does NOT have a printed manual and 1 is a 50 size (thankfully the 50 size has a printed manual). it is hard to tell before purchase if it has a printed manual because you cannot open the box until you pay for it and once it is oppen you would be hard pressed to return it. however if you buy from your lhs ask them if it has one or look to see if they have one open you could look at. if neither of these options pan out ask the hobbyshop to open it before you purchase it to see if it has a manual ( then be mean and purchase an unopened one LOL J/K).
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Manufacturers read this! I'm sick of not getting manuals.
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