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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Why hasn't anyone regeared nitros to run at higher headspeeds?
04-11-2007 03:39 AM  12 years ago
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Maxists The Baddist

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Why hasn't anyone regeared nitros to run at higher headspeeds?
I thought that it was bad to run my raptor over 2000 because of the stress on the parts like spindle and bolts. Then I learned that around slightly under 2000 was a good place for an OS 50 to run at. Well, Trexs are run well over 2000, why hasn't a kit or converstion come out with perhaps a 60 engine in a 50 but regeared for higher headspeeds with the proper torque and rpm?
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04-11-2007 04:44 AM  12 years ago
Tommy Z

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Lubbock, Texas

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Here's what I think
Nitros are starting to lose popularity, so companies don't really feel the need to come out with new kits that offer more room for bigger engines, etc.
Have you noticed that instead of coming out with a new nitro, Thunder tiger introduced the E-620SE, E-550, and mini titan? I think there is a new 90 nitro, though. Anyway, I think companies don't see the need...Except Align..I don't know what they were thinking.
Min Air now has the Razor, Mikado logo was smart and never went nitro (that I know of), and Hirobo has their lepton.
Of course this is all my opinion. I just received my rappy titan, because I knew I'd be able to get some good flight times with, what is now considered, decent power. Had I gone with some E-monster, I would not be able to learn as fast. When I go to college I plan on getting a really nice heli like a logo or the lepton
-Tommy Boy
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04-11-2007 04:46 AM  12 years ago
Nashville

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Good question Maxists. I see we have another case of Trex envy. LOL! Anyway, my Trex(s) just gets badder the higher I rev up the rpm's. I think it's just one of the small advantages we have on you gassers. Can't fly for 10+ minutes (yet) but we sure can get some "pop". I'd still like one of our more technical brethern to provide some details.I was Spektrum when Spektrum wasn't cool
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04-11-2007 04:58 AM  12 years ago
flipped2left

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indianapolis,in.

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Thats why gassers are becoming popular! they are the cheapest to maintain and fly! sure it may cost 2.70 a gal of petrol but thats cheaper than 15 to 20 a gal. for nitro! gets you about 40 min. flight time, just fuel up heli grab the radio, don't need anything else! cheaper than electrics as well.Smile! people will wonder what you're up to!!
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04-11-2007 05:03 AM  12 years ago
ADRYAN

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Stouffville, Ontario, Canada

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Why hasn't anyone regeared nitros to run at higher headspeeds?
It's not a question of being a nitro or electric.... but more on the size. Full scale helis don't go over 1000 rpms.... 90's do well at 1900 rpm (nitro or electric), etc., etc...... with regards to nitros, there is a restiction on competition size so manufacturers stick to that 90 size limit... the popularity of electrics have just emerged recently and the battery technology of lipos have dramatically increased the demand for lipos and in return declining it's cost, therefore increasing the demand for electrics. As you may notice, the demand for 90 sized electrics ( like the IonX) is still not that abundant because of the cost to effectively run the helicopter at it's required battery operating power (are you ready to pay for $800-1000 dollar lipos)... not to mention the chargers required for these setups.... it still seems to be an eliteist machine.

With regards to your title question... what would you do with a Raptor 50 or trex 600 running a 3000 plus headspeed????

It's all a question of efficiency and balance... you may be able to run your trex 600 at 3000 rpms, mechanics/materials permits, but your flight time would be about 2 minutes... same goes for nitros (engine would probably cost more in order to be efficient at that power output) but you'll end up with probably 4 minutes for that 10 oz fuel tank. But at the current components, both motor or engine won't last that long.... it's all a balance of science and cost effeciency...

a

p.s. for a few extra grand more, you may be able to get your 3000 plus headspeed 90 sized electric machine with an 8 minute 3D flight time.....

p.s.s. they did re-gear the raptor 50 in order to produce higher torque with lower headspeed in order to minimize engine loading at it's peak performance with the longer blades for 3d flight.
.
DYNAX/OS91 : 9303/S649pcm : GY601/9251 : CSMRL10/9253 : 7.4vLipo/Regulator : KO2123s(ai/el/pi)
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04-11-2007 05:29 AM  12 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Perhaps there's no need to take a 50 sized Raptor and gear it up for a 60, since you can already BUY a 60 sized Raptor. Same goes for most "50" size machines out there. Why build a conversion kit for a heli that already has a 60 sized machine in the line-up, that's already geared correctly for a 60, has a boom and rotor blades long enough to handle the extra power.....

With the larger rotor disk of nitro machines, there's no need to run the head at the blazing speed that the little electrics do. You simply need the horsepower and torque to maintain the headspeed you can already attain to get a great flying large heli.

-----

It's going to be a while before the electric heli becomes the norm and the nitro heli goes the way of the dinosaur.

You mention the buzz about the Align 600, the Razor, the TT E helis... ... but with flight batteries running easily from $300 to $900 per pack, batteries have a long way to go yet. The price of a single battery is bad enough for the larger sized electrics, the bigger problem is that you need several of those packs to make a day's flying useful.

Even at that, the Align 600 folk are struggling to get flights longer than about six minutes with their E-helis. Spend a fortune on batteries, and still get only six minutes of flying? A tank of fuel costs a couple of bucks at most and generally you'll get at least ten to 15 minutes of flying on an equivlent nitro ship. And all you need to refuel is a pump and a jug of fuel.

One crash can destroy an expensive pack. The support equipment to charge the larger packs at the field is not low cost. Many have resorted to purchasing small gasoline powered generators just to power their charging setups (and the chargers aren't cheap, either).

You'll see a LOT of Trex 450s, MX400s, some MiniTitans, and other small electrics out and about, but that's only because the battery and charger costs are relatively low. Although they have been out for over a year, you don't see a lot of Hirobo Leptons around. For that matter, it's still a novelty in most places to see a Mikado heli of any description, or a Joker or any other larger than a Trex 450. The Align 600, though popular, is still a rarity at many sites where nitro helis are coming out of the woodwork. The cost of the power plant is still not that cost effective for the average Joe flyer.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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04-11-2007 06:11 AM  12 years ago
Gearhead

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Vt

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as for glows,, there are guys flying 61 size motors in their 50 helis, but in the posts I saw these guys did their conversion before the new OS Hyper 50,,

if it has been reported that the Raptor's head is coming apart at a HS of 2000 then a larger motor would do no good, the OS 50 Hyper with a good pipe/muffler will pull 1950 all day long, and a good governor would stop even the best pilots from bogging the motor,,

if you really want that kind of power this is what you do, you buy an OS 50 Hyper and an OS 60B carb and the Weston mini pipe, and a governor will help..

Jim
Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
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04-11-2007 06:38 AM  12 years ago
Helikrasher

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USA

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The price of a single battery is bad enough for the larger sized electrics, the bigger problem is that you need several of those packs to make a day's flying useful.
Not to mention that the battery technology such as li-ion and li-po are becoming more and more useful everyday in different applications, not likely to see the price drop anytime soon. New battery technology is a gold mine right now but electrics still have alot of room for improvement: more stable and durable batteries, shorter charge times, smaller physical dimensions ..... but I think the electrics would have the gassers beat in the weight category - motor + batteries compared to engine and a full tank of fuel.
HK ... In a world of compromise, some don't.
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04-11-2007 07:59 AM  12 years ago
KevinR

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if it has been reported that the Raptor's head is coming apart at a HS of 2000 then a larger motor would do no good,
Some of the Raptor e620 guys are running headspeeds of almost 2400RPM, and it's the same head as the Raptor 50.
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04-11-2007 08:13 AM  12 years ago
Gearhead

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that's what he said, not me LOL

Jim
Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
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04-11-2007 08:20 AM  12 years ago
Helikrasher

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I'm going to get a gasser when I stop crashing
LOL!! - I'm going to be rich when I stop crashing
HK ... In a world of compromise, some don't.
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04-11-2007 10:16 AM  12 years ago
Graeme R H

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Berkshire UK

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You might want to consider the strength of the parts would not be up to the job. I've seen a friend bend the blade bolts on his logo 20 because he was running to higher head speed. Also the faster you go the further away the bits will end up when you crash. Work out the energy in the tips of a 700mm blade at 2000 and 2500 rpm. It is frightening. 550 blades at 1750 rpm is like a cricket or baseball doing 60mph. Tip speed of 30 size blades in excess of 300mph at sensible speeds.Why fly the rest when you can fly the best. What are the best these days anyway ?
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04-11-2007 03:42 PM  12 years ago
Maxists The Baddist

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First off my Raptor setup is plenty powerful enough for me. I just thought it was interesting how electric aways have such high headspeeds and no problems with heads flying apart. I've been flying a trex 450 now for about a month and and like it and have caught the electric bug. I've had my Raptor 50 for about 2 years now and aways think about getting a 90 but now I'm wanting a bigger electic. Just one of the differences between nitro and electric.
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04-11-2007 06:13 PM  12 years ago
martinic

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NB, Canada

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Unlike electrics (it seems like there are a bazillion new power options coming out every day, each better than the one before it), nitro technology hasn't changed all that much. Sure, there have been improvements, but nothing like the exponential change that is occuring in the electric world. This is all relatively speaking, of course.

The relatively consistent power to weight ratios of nitro platforms meeans that the balance of power, weight and headspeed is well established and doesn't change a whole lot. Before you could make dramatic differences in the headspeed, you'd need some dramatic improvement in the powerplant technology.

So, aside from minor variations, a 50 works well with 600mm blades at ~2K RPM and the motors and gearing are balanced. If you want more power, you go to a 90. It's simpler because the parameters don't change significantly.

Now, in electric, the underlying battery technology (fuel) is changing in leaps and bounds. As higher capacity, lighter, lower internal resistance, higher discharge batteries come out, new motors (and helis) come out to exploit them. The "best configuration" is a moving target. What's best today is obselete in 2-3 months.

So, that's why people don't mess around too much with nitro gearing and why electric is wide open.

What this means is that there is more market potnential for electric -this means higher performance for pilots, a larger market for manufacturers, distributors and retailers and overall growth for our hobby. This is the real reason that e-helis will displace nitro and gas helis in the marketplace.

This is not limited to helis as it is also true in fixed wing, although gas is currently the power system of choice for larger aircraft there.

Electric completely dominates the smaller platforms and this phenomena is creeping up to the larger aircraft as volumes drive down pricing and make the technology more affordable; it's self-fulfilling.

Electric will increasingly displace nitro and gas because that's where the growth market is. It is what people want (created market?) and where there is the most growth potential for manufacturers.
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04-11-2007 06:21 PM  12 years ago
DS 8717

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The raptor 50 is overgeared,the main reason most of the raptor owners at our field run such a high headspeed is to get tha cyclic aand collective the quickness needed.this more of a design problem,a better design would speed up the controls without the need to run such a high headspeed. This also puts the engine out of it's power range. I think a 8.8 or 8.9 would be a more suitable speed if the heli has a fast enough control system. On eguy at our field runs his at 2150 and it bogs to 1900 because of the 8.5 ratio.Dont about electrics being more popular,mabey in the Trex size but no one at our field flys any of the 50 size or larger. i know electrics,the bigger ones are still much to expensive still.DOUGYOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED
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04-11-2007 06:29 PM  12 years ago
MrMel

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Gotland

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Being a "pure electric" type of person, and since I own everything from micro to three .90 sized electrics, here is my input.

The electric's gave us the possibility to easy setup and test higher headspeeds, when I started with my first t-rex 450 people called it crazy if you went past 2200 RPM, today its more like, pheeeft, you only run 2600??..

More headspeed makes the machine more stable and more responsive.

However, with the new VStabi/CSM/Flybarless, we are going back, you can now lower headspeed, still get a very stable machine, and for how responsive it will be, its up to you and the configuration.
In the same time you get more runtime and more power.

So, since everything is still evolving, we will see alot different input in 12 month on this topic, thats my guess.
Some of the Raptor e620 guys are running headspeeds of almost 2400RPM, and it's the same head as the Raptor 50.
E620SE has metal hub, not a stock plastic...

Ive accently ran 2700 on my raptor (with full metal head) when I had wrong setting on the radio... dont recommend it though.
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04-11-2007 06:36 PM  12 years ago
KevinR

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E620SE has metal hub, not a stock plastic...
Ya, my mistake, meant to say same head as R50SE.

Personally I run mine at 'only' 2200RPM, it still has lots of punch though.
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04-11-2007 07:30 PM  12 years ago
Rockohaulic

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I think the answer to the original post is HORSEPOWER.

For example, take a 50 nitro. You are limited to the 1.9hp that the hyper makes at 18000 rpm. Period. All the gearing in the world is not going to help if you don't have enough horsepower.

The Raptor is also an example of that. With the old 8.5 gearing, the motor tends to bog more than with the new 8.7 Titan gearing and a slightly SLOWER headspeed.

Take a mountain bike for example. The gearing and top speed is limited by the horsepower - the rider. You could increase the gearing so that the bike itself could go faster, but the rider won't have enough power to push that gearing. Unless your last name is Armstrong.

The electric 50s can get away with higher headspeed because they make more horsepower.
Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know
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04-11-2007 07:34 PM  12 years ago
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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its simple. its a combination of available power and aerodynamics. you need to keep the blade tip speeds below the compressibility point. at sea level under standard atmospheric conditions, thats around 330 mph. a smaller blade can be run at higher headspeeds because the blades are shorter and so the velocity at the tips is slower than on a longer blade turning at the same angular velocity. the other limiting factor is available HP. if you put a big enough engine in to allow higher headspeeds then the bird would weigh too much. you could alleviate the high weight by increasing the blade length and thus decreasing the disk loading. now youve gone full circle and are now back to compressibility problems.Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!
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04-11-2007 07:57 PM  12 years ago
KevinR

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Vancouver, BC Canada

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I think the answer to the original post is HORSEPOWER.
I think you hit the nail on the head. An electric Raptor e620 with the correct setup will have more power than a nitro Raptor 50.
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