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Home🏆Contest✈️Aircraft🚁Helicopter🏆Aerobatic FAI F3C F3N ContestFAI F3C WORLDS Poland 2007
08-05-2007 05:22 PM  13 years ago
johnb

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Guildford, Surrey UK

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i just got back from Poland too...doing my bit to support the lads!

Dave was really unlucky not to get into the fly offs - he had a servo let go during the final preliminary round - it was most noticable during the flipping pullback since it twitched violently but was really lucky to hold it together and complete the round. and get a score on the board. I'm sure he's learnt his lesson now - if in doubt, swop it out.

All our guys did brilliantly and i'm sure many lessons have been learnt all round - and well done to Daniel for being the 3rd place junior. Wouldn't it have been better to exclude the top 3 pilots from the 'juniors' - Ito walked away with 2 laptops!!!!!!

john.
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08-05-2007 05:34 PM  13 years ago
greg

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Yorkville, IL

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Wouldn't it have been better to exclude the top 3 pilots from the 'juniors' - Ito walked away with 2 laptops!!!!!!
Thats a tough call.
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08-06-2007 11:22 AM  13 years ago
iyoy

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Bacolod City, Philippines

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F3C Family
Argentine F3C Team

Argentine Team has arrived yesterday to Wloclawek.
They alreaday checked out at WC.
Diego Vincini and Alan Kaufer are representing us, first world contest for them and only team representing Latin America in Poland.
We support them from here!
EXITOS!!!

Un Gran Saludo a Todos!

Hi Gaucho,
I saw Alan, Diego and their sister(remind me her name?)at Wloclawek. It's nice to see a family working together as a team in the F3C World Champs. BTW, what's their story? Why the different family names?

Best regards,
Julio Manalo
Philippine F3C Team
iyoy
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08-06-2007 12:51 PM  13 years ago
GauchoVolador

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Tx

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Hi Julio,
Yes Julio they are really close and help each other between brothers, we fly and work together so i can witness that all the time. By the way congratulations for your participation. So you met them there? I hope you all have spent really nice time! Diego and Alan´s sister is Carolina.
Best Regards,
Victor
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08-06-2007 03:36 PM  13 years ago
rotoboy

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Paris-France

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Hi,

The french team is just back from Poland. Many thanks to the organizer for this great event. It was a pleasure to see you all.
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08-06-2007 06:37 PM  13 years ago
ymuraki

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Tampa, FL

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US Team
Hi all,
US team except Curtis are back home. Curtis had to go back to UK first and come home.

There was big delay at Chicago airport last night and all the planes were 3~4 hours delay. I got home at 1:00am... Chicago to Tampa took more than Poland to Chicago.

Nob
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08-06-2007 07:42 PM  13 years ago
johnb

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the brit supporters kept curtis company - we bumped into him at Warsaw airport - he was sitting on the floor waiting for the rest of the team to come through the security gate so i got some coins out and went to throw them at him he flew back to the UK on the same flight and then onward to the USA today.
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08-06-2007 11:17 PM  13 years ago
MattJen

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UK

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so where did we finish ?

matt
All The Best
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08-07-2007 12:48 AM  13 years ago
Dwight

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West Chicago, IL

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Japan - 6026.2
USA - 5622.4
Austria - 5409.3
France - 5399.4
Italy - 5193.0
Germany - 5087.3
Great Britain - 5070.3
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08-07-2007 02:02 AM  13 years ago
iyoy

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Bacolod City, Philippines

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Hi Victor,
Thank you! 2007 is only the second year that our country has participated in the Worlds and only the first time we have a full complement of 3 members. The other 2 pilots in our team, Alvin and Mark Alcantara are also brothers. This is their 2nd Worlds while I joined for the 1st time. They placed 24nd and 33rd respectively while I got 59th. We combined for 12th place team.

Hope to see everyone of you guys in 2009 in the US!
iyoy
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08-07-2007 03:54 AM  13 years ago
Wayne Mann

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United States of America

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Hi Guys,

I would like to thank everyone for there support of all the competing pilots and teams at the Word Championships. I think that most of us had a great time at the Worlds. Poland is a nice place to go and the women are very beautiful. Don't even ask me about the men as I have no opinion.

The weather was very unpredictable. We had varying winds every day that would really test your ability to stay totally focused on the model. Any lapse in concentration during the hovering maneuvers and the model could jump two to five feet before you could get it back under control. If you had to fly in the heavy winds you didn't have to worry about being nervous flying in front of the judges and all of the world class pilots as you were way too busy concentrating on the model. Only when you got the chance to fly in light winds or no wind would you feel your heart pounding from the rush of adrenaline and nerves. Flying in high winds is not nearly as nerve racking as flying in clam conditions. When the winds are light the pressure to put in great rounds is tremendous. Everyone is watching your flights when you get light winds as they want to see who can handle the pressure or stress levels that light winds place on the pilot.

We, the US team were very fortunate to have a lot of support. Without Rolando (our team manager), Chis (Rolando's Polish friend who traveled with us), Cliff Hiatt, Nob Muraki and Dave Youngblood we would not have been able to perform at such a high level.

The contest over all was run very well. We only had one major thing happen that really got a lot of people upset. Some of you that compete on a regular basis may have caught this anomaly when looking at the score totals and placings from the top 15 pilots for the four preliminary rounds compared to the standings and scores of the top 15 pilots once the finals started. You will notice that the placings change around a little bit. For instance after the first four rounds I'm shown in 6th place, but once the finals started I moved to 3rd place before even flying the first round of B schedule. What happened was after two rounds of the preliminaries were flown they realized that the scoring system (the computer program) wasn't normalizing the scores correctly. So after failing to get the program to cooperate or finding someone smarter to fix the program they (I should say HE, the one in charge) decided to change the scoring system. I won't mention his name, but I will say that he is not Polish. Long story short, Two pilots that were suppose to be in the finals, Dwight Shilling and Fabio Livi from Italy were not in the the finals and two guys were in the finals that should not have been there. We caught this before the finals started, but we were unable to get (them, he) to correct the situation. The fair thing to do would have been to add Dwight and Fabio to the finals list making it 17 people in the finals which would not have caused any problems, but (they, he) would not budge from their decision. I can't even imagine how upset I would have been had I been the one on the receiving end of this mess. Anyway they figured out the scoring system (program) and corrected the results for the start of the finals.

I'm already looking forward to the Worlds in Muncie IN in the US in 2009 and I hope to see everyone there.

Wayne Mann
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08-07-2007 04:40 AM  13 years ago
greg

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Yorkville, IL

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Thanks for the great report Wayne. It is very unfortunate about the scoring fiasco. I feel bad that Dwight did not have the opportunity to fly in the finals. Congratulations to Team USA on their second place finish.
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08-07-2007 08:26 AM  13 years ago
johnb

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Guildford, Surrey UK

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Was the problem with the scoring system not all hinged around averaging the pilots score to the top 20% of pilots scores as per the CIAM document published here - http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/sy...V2_20070414.pdf and not any flaw in their scoring system. Having been in the same position myself at the Europeans in 2006 i know that the scoring system has got pretty complicated these days and this problem is certainly no fault of the organisers but firmly routed with the FAI.

What this meant is that rather than averaging to the average (completed round) pilot score per flight line per day you'd actually be only averaging to the top 20% pilots scores per flight line per day - which is far too small a number and why the scores looked so odd.

Before I flew out to Poland to be with our team i had been crunching the numbers and just couldn't get the same normalised score as I was normalising to 8 pilots (37 pilots per flight line, 20% thereof is 7.4 = 8 pilots). Having spoken to Horace on my arrival he explained that they were following the published documents to the letter which is where they got their scores from. The document says "20% of the total number of pilots at the start of the competition (rounded up in case of an odd number) or a maximum of 12." - so the 12 being for an entire contest means 6 pilots scores count per flight line - but obviously this being the first 'outing' of this scoring system flaws were found immediately which is why they went back to the previous normalising to 500 of all the completed flights after the 2nd round.

It seems to me (and plenty of others that I spoke about) that it may make sense to continue using the 500 normalisation for preliminary rounds and for the team contest but then start a new competition for the flyoffs (so no carry through score) and return to the 1000 normalisation.

jb.
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08-07-2007 09:10 AM  13 years ago
Spacey

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Pretoria, South Africa

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Most of the South Africans are home and safe also as of yesterday. One of our pilots along with his father is going for a little tour of Germany though but his models were brough back home by die team and all the models and luggage are home safely. I unpacked my Sylphides last night and apart from a few scratches on the bodies everything's here in one piece. I won't even begin to create a list of people I want to thank as it simply would be too long. Alas I thank everyone that contributed also to making the event the nice experience it was for all of us, especially all the friendly folk like the Swiss guys and and and that were always up for a chat. Cliff Hiat, Scott Gray, the Phillipine (SP?) guys argh there's just too many. Thanks to all and thanks to all the pilots that went through the huge effort to make the event possible. Even the guys that hung around the last bunch of places like me, their all winners IMHO and without them the event would just simply suck.

Thanks to everyone! I had a great time and learned more about F3C in the last two weeks than I have over the last two years that I've been flying helis.

Regards,
Rudolf
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08-07-2007 09:33 AM  13 years ago
johnb

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I've just recrunched the scores....

here's what they done.

After the preliminary rounds, they took the top 15 pilots raw scores for the 4 rounds, dropped the lowest and then renormalised the score to 15 pilots scores through to the flyoffs - when they rank the new normalised score you get the following ranking differences;

flyoff end rank prelim start rank
ITOU Hiroki 1 1
GRAY Scott 2 2
SENSUI Kazuyuki 4 3
HASHIMOTO Manabu 6 5
DOBASHI Yukihiro 5 6
MANN Wayne 3 4
YOUNGBLOOD Curtis 7 7
LOMBARD Laurent 9 8
EGGER Bernhard 10 10
GRABER Ennio 12 11
FEIL Ruediger 8 9
ROBERTS Steve 14 13
LUCCHI Stefano 11 12
KALS Andreas 15 15
WESSEL Oliver 13 14

the problem here that i can see is that they are normalising raw scores which were achieved across two flight lines to produce the carried through score - I can only assume that this is what the FAI were attempting to solve in their PDF previously referenced which says
The normalised results of the preliminary rounds for the top 15 pilots will count as one score by dropping the lowest scoring round, adding the remaining rounds together, and dividing the resulting total by the number of counting preliminary rounds.
but obviously, they ditched using the top 20% rule which this document also referred to so i can only assume they ditched this method of carrying the normalised score through...had they done so then ranking from the preliminary rounds would have carried through and maintained ranking,

normlised div 3 rank
ITOU Hiroki 2126.7 708.9 1
GRAY Scott 2095.9 698.6 2
SENSUI Kazuyuki 2023.8 674.6 3
HASHIMOTO Manabu 2004.5 668.16 4
DOBASHI Yukihiro 1997.9 665.96 5
MANN Wayne 1965 655 6
YOUNGBLOOD Curtis 1919.6 639.86 7
LOMBARD Laurent 1888.5 629.5 8
EGGER Bernhard 1864.2 621.4 9
GRABER Ennio 1855.8 618.6 10
FEIL Ruediger 1827.5 609.16 11
ROBERTS Steve 1821.6 607.2 12
LUCCHI Stefano 1803.1 601.03 13
KALS Andreas 1787.7 595.9 14
WESSEL Oliver 1776.6 592.2 15
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08-07-2007 09:36 AM  13 years ago
johnb

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Guildford, Surrey UK

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ugh...it looked much nicer before i posted it - not a nice way to draw tables in here.
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08-07-2007 12:55 PM  13 years ago
Tobias1

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Germany

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Hi,

John, you seem to be right, obviously HE (as Wayne calls him) saw some flaws in the results, but noone could explain or even show them until now.

I followed all the results and calculated them on my own too, and I found no problems, especially no problems that would have been solved by using the old system.
What this meant is that rather than averaging to the average (completed round) pilot score per flight line per day you'd actually be only averaging to the top 20% pilots scores per flight line per day - which is far too small a number and why the scores looked so odd.
Why at all is that a too small number??? In the "good old days" we referred only to ONE guy and awarded him with 1000 points, so 20% (or at least 6 each flightline) is much better!! And again: please show me, where the scores looked odd, I think, they didn´t!

Another reason for the 20%-system was the comparability of preliminary flights and fly-offs. This really works fine (or would have worked fine, if HE had not interfered). I calculated the whole competition with several methods, especially the both used in Poland.
There are luckily only small difference, but they aren´t small from the point of view of Fabio, Dwight and also the French-team, who lost Bronce-medal to Austria.

Next it seems, that the calculations of the preliminary rounds have not been done correct by taking in account only completed flights, but they used ALL flights as reference (even Chris´ flights, who obviously wasn´t in Poland, but in the resultlist)!
Also (as John wrote) the calculation of the prelim scores to be carried on to the fly-offs was done without any mathematical logic nor reference to the rules. Luckily this had no influence on the final results.

But finally and most important to me: How can it happen, that an important rule like the calculation system can be changed DURING the competition by one (ore maybe two) persons??????
This rule was installed as a local rule by the CIAM plenary meeting, which is the highest authority of the CIAM.
I doubt, that all of what happened was legal and I also doubt, that this story will end here...

Tobias Schulz
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08-07-2007 02:29 PM  13 years ago
rotoboy

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Paris-France

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Hi Tobias,

The problem was not the way to compute the average. Here is the document which generate the problem. As you can see, a pilot with 212 points has 493,6 after normalizing. Another one with 218,5 has only 474,5 points on the same round. It looks absolutely illogical. This is due to the "per day normalizing". These two pilots were not on the same flight line and the problem was that the two flights line where unbalanced.
For me, the "per day normalizing" must be removed from the rules because it's impossible to be sure that the two lines will be balanced.

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08-07-2007 02:52 PM  13 years ago
Tobias1

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Germany

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Hi Laurent,

I´m sorry, but it is not illogical. Graber flew the 212 on the first, very windy day and Egger his 218.5 on second day with better conditions.
On the better conditions the average was higher and so the points were lower that day, thats exactly what is intended by the daily normalisation for each flight line separately: to make days with different weather conditions comparable.

Or in other words: On a day, where the average of the top pilots is 214 points due to strong wind, a 212 is worth more than a 218.5 achieved on a day where the average is about 230 (and this is all that happened there).

And btw: with the system used after the change these two scores still read: 212=623.3 and 218.5=613.5

Best regards,
Tobias
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08-07-2007 03:23 PM  13 years ago
Chopper

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Stow,Oh- oops, I mean St Louis, nope Stow again,

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Tobias is correct. That is exactly the purpose of normalizing.

The problem apears to be that published rules were not followed.
Paul Soha is a free agent now. Wow.
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