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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Help Raptor tail not holding.
02-11-2007 05:20 PM  14 years ago
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Divot

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Mesa, AZ

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Help Raptor tail not holding.
Hello I went to fly my rappy today but have to come home early.
On Idle up (full 3d) if I do a power climb everything is fine.
If I do a power descend and level off the tail snaps 90 degrees
to the left (nose right). Also in forward flight the tail will let go
briefly from time to time just not nearly as bad. I have a raptor 30
with a gy401/9254. I have tried adjust the delay and the travel pots
also tried adjusting the gain but nothing has helped.
I also have replaced every bearing in the tail and main/start shaft.
I am beginning to think I might have a radio or gyro problem.

You guys have any suggestions for me? I really would appreciate any help on this.
Thanks
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02-11-2007 05:34 PM  14 years ago
baddynergy

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sierra madre, ca- usa

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Your delay should be at 0 for the servo. Adjust the travel pot to just stop binding against the tail housing. Try setting delay aroung 60. Make sure the linkage rod isnt binding in the rimgs on the boom.
Make sure you dont have any revo mixing in any flight modes

Hope this helps
**Unattended children will be givin a shot of espresso and a puppy**
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02-11-2007 05:37 PM  14 years ago
Divot

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Mesa, AZ

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Try setting delay aroung 60
Thanks Bad I have tried everything listed exept this part.
Did you mean gain? If not I will try the delay at 60.
Thanks
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02-11-2007 05:59 PM  14 years ago
baddynergy

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sierra madre, ca- usa

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Yes, sorry I meant gain in HH mode, you can always work up from there until it starts to hunt. Delay on the gyro should be 0.**Unattended children will be givin a shot of espresso and a puppy**
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Help Raptor tail not holding.
02-13-2007 04:48 AM  14 years ago
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dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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I have tried adjust the delay and the travel pots also tried adjusting the gain but nothing has helped.
Since you seem to be using the shotgun method to adjust your gyro, perhaps it's time you actually learned how to set up your mechanics and the gyro before you go fly.

Number 1. You MUST apply power to the 401 with it set to Heading Hold mode. If you don't do this, all bets are off on whether or not the gyro will work. The red LED will blink rapidly at power on, then go on solid if you've successfully initialized in AVCS/HH mode. If you don't get a solid red LED on your gyro after initialization, you're in the WRONG mode. Fix the gain setting to select HH mode and try again.

Number 2. Make sure that you've set the mechanical aspects of the tail rotor system up first. Servo centered at neutral, arm perpendicular to the tail boom, and to the push rod. Get the bellcrank at the rear set up per your assembly manual, too. There should be no binding or stiff spots in the mechanics. Fix it before you go any further.

Number 3. Start out with rudder travel endpoints set to 100% to begin with. If you find the piro rate too hot to handle later on, decrease the endpoint settings as you trim the heli for flight. If you want to increase piro rate, increase the rudder endpoints. You can have different values for left and right rudder, this will help you get left/right piro rates close to each other. With the 401, you may not be able to get equal rates for left and right, however.

Number 4. Set the TRAVEL LIMIT pot to 100%. Place the linkage ball on the rudder servo out from center at a distance such that you get AT LEAST +/- 45 degrees of servo travel, without slamming the tail pitch slider into a mechanical stop. Get close, fine tune the endpoints using the TRAVEL LIMIT pot to make sure you aren't stalling the servo at full deflection either way. Start out with neutral servo and tail pitch slider centered in its travel.

Number 5. I assume you have the transmitter rudder direction and the gyro normal/reverse direction properly set to work in the correct direction. Double check that both transmitter AND gyro are driving the servo in the correct direction. If not, fix it BEFORE you fly.

Number 6. Turn the DELAY pot to 0 unless you are using a slow analog servo.

Number 7. If you're using a digital servo such as the 9254, turn the DS switch ON, otherwise, turn it OFF.

Number 8. Make sure ALL RUDDER neutral and sub trim settings are dialed out to ZERO in ALL flight modes. This is easily overlooked, but a must. NEVER NEVER NEVER touch the rudder trim tab on the TX after you've initialized the gyro in HH mode. You will confuse the gyro and the result won't be pretty.

Number 9. When using the heading hold mode, REVolution and ACCeleration mixing must be disabled in your transmitter.

Number 10. Assuming you have the mechanics set up correctly, the travel limit adjust pot is set to prevent mechanical binding at the endpoints, that you are initializing in HH/AVCS mode, you should be ready to actually fine tune the mechanics. Turn on the transmitter, the receiver, and let the gyro initialize in HH mode. Switch the gyro to NORMAL mode, then bring your heli to a hover. Adjust the tail rotor pushrod until you can hold a hover without any stick correction without the heli trying to rotate left or right. Land. Switch back to HH/AVCS mode. Go fly.

Number 11. Adjust your gain for HH/AVCS and Normal/Rate mode based on the flying characteristics of the heli. In HH mode fly in straight, level fast forward flight. Increase the gain until the heli's tail begins to oscillate. Back the gain off just until that oscillation stops.

Number 12. If you had to do some mechanical adjusting of the TR stuff when in Normal mode, it's a good idea to recheck your travel limit adjustment to insure you don't have binding at either extreme.

Go fly, you're done.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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02-13-2007 07:19 AM  14 years ago
swasey1982

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La Ceiba, Honduras

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nicelly said dave. !! .
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02-13-2007 11:42 AM  14 years ago
PbThumbs

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Katy, Tx USA

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Well said, Full set-up tutorial,
But back to the problem,
If you piro 90 deg when givin hard collective, it is a end-point or rpm problem. Not getting enough pitch to compensate or rpm is too low. Usually end point not going to full, one way or the other.

If during take off it will be one side comming up short. If stoping from decent it will be the other. If both then both sides need more throw.

Limit pot, with good mechanicl adj will solve your problem.

If limit pot causes it to hit 1 side before the other, change linkage so you get full throw both ways
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02-13-2007 01:21 PM  14 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Limit pot, with good mechanical adj will solve your problem.
Nothing a good, proper setup won't fix. And if you try to fix the problem by simply twiddling the knobs on the gyro, well, you really don't understand how to use one in the first place.

The process is simple, takes a few minutes out of your overall setup time, but pays BIG dividends at the field.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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02-13-2007 06:20 PM  14 years ago
sla

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wasilla,ak,99654

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i wish someone would have told me that along time ago whe i set up mine. i figured it out by plain and simple luck and crossing fingers.
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02-13-2007 07:06 PM  14 years ago
cdrking

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Seattle

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dkshema,

Excellent post Dave. I am even going to copy it and print to give to new guys at our field. This seems to be a very confusing part about setting up a gyro.

One thing I have never understood about this process though is the switching to normal mode and adjusting the linkage. I personally have never done this part. I was even told while attending a well known 3D school years ago to throw the manual out when it comes to this part of the manual.

Like I said I have never done this with my helis. I just set everything as you point out. Well one thing is a bit different but I'll ask that one later. I set up mechanical and get it smooth as butter, then the rest. I have also had excellent luck with my method and the 401s that I've had worked flawless at holding and no drifting.

My question regarding #10, if you switch to normal mode and then adjust the linkage to neutral then switch back to HH. Won't your linkage now bind or possibly bind because you've changed the mechanical setup and have not reset your limits?

As a side note when I help someone setup a 401 I explain to them I don't do it according to the manual. I let them decide if they want to add the step prescribed in the instructions.

Regarding #3 I personally would recommend to someone starting out to set the ATVs on the rudder to 100%. That way it doesn't make them wet their pants when they use the rudder the first time.

Again excellent post. Like I said I'm going to print it and hand it out to new guys.

Jeff
To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.
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02-13-2007 07:16 PM  14 years ago
PbThumbs

rrApprentice

Katy, Tx USA

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While setting up in normal, The servo "center" holds true, it helps getting the mechanical part correct(in HH it moves around). End points don't change between modes, setting the limits is part of the mechanical setup.

I have always rolled the end points up to max after set-up at 100% thats the only thing I do diffrent.
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02-13-2007 10:01 PM  14 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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It's a good idea to recheck the travel limits if you had to tweak the linkage. Good catch. I'll add it in to the post above.-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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02-13-2007 10:19 PM  14 years ago
Divot

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Mesa, AZ

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Thanks for all the input.
Thanks dkshema for such a detail check list.
I have done some, but will work on the items I have
to covered. Thanks again everbody
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02-13-2007 11:38 PM  14 years ago
icepirate

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Fayetteville Arkansas USA

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Maybe a stupid question, but have you checked your tail gear and belt for missing or worn teeth? If it only happens every now and then, maybe that's something to look at. To be honest, I am not familiar with the Raptor, so if it's not a belt driven tail, please disreguard.

I guess this would be more of a question than an answer! Could this be mechanical??

Rick
Good things come to those who wait, and PRACTICE!
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