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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Prototype CSM Flybarless System test.....Update
05-21-2007 08:40 PM  13 years ago
RussD

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UK

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Hi DaveThomasPilot & Autoeject

Sounds very much you both need to earth the boom to the frames / motor (or change gyro location maybe). The best way to earth the boom is to take a small piece of (servo type) wire from the output shaft bearing to the boom and then another wire from the boom to the engine mount if it is metal or to frames and posibly engine casing of the mount is plastic. You can test the before and after effect by using a multi-meter with one probe resting on tail output shaft and the other on the engine mount and spinning head on bench. The meter will most probably go off limit very easily without erathing and take a lot more spinning of blades with earthing.

You can increse the gain to improve stablity even further, but be aware that too high a value and it is likely to get upset when doing flips / aerobatics rather than when in the hover. One way to help have the best of both worlds is to run a TX mix where Cyclic is the master and gyro gain is the slave. Then as the TX stick is operated, the gyro gains are reduced. We have used around minus 40% mix, which in real terms probably equates to a genuine reduction of 8-10% gain.

Reference the cyclic range, we have aimed for an initial start range of 10 degrees cyclic each way, but not had enough time to find just how much is actually needed. Can you fit longer control balls to the inner swash to improve on the 7 degrees?

Reference the 'cycloc mixer' or 'TX dual rate' for changing cyclic rate, definettly use the 'TX dual-rate' to increse or decrease in-flight cyclic rotation rates of model. Also use Expo to create the desired feel around centre stick.

Hope this helps and thanks for the feedback!

Russ.
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05-21-2007 08:40 PM  13 years ago
DaveThomasPilot

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Apex, NC

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Actually, the glitch only occurs in the elevator gyro, never the roll gyro.

My elevator gyro is mounted on the boom, while the roll gyro is between the frames, almost under the main shaft (farther away from tail rotor belt).

I have a JR 500T at the same spot on the boom as the CSM (except mounted at 90 degrees relatvie to the CSM elevator gyro). It's never shown any sensitivity to the static discharge (and still doesn't).

I have the CSM gyro on the metal plate that came with it. Never used one of those with the Futaba or JR gyros I owned. I suspect that's supposed to be a ground plane to eliminate RF susceptibility. I bet electrically connecting that plate to the right spot on the helicopter might be a good way to start. Or, perhaps shielding the entire gyro in aluminum foil and connecting foil + metal plate to something.

Dave Thomas
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05-21-2007 08:45 PM  13 years ago
RussD

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Hi Dave Thomas,

I will be very intersted to hear your results on this.

Thanks,

RussD.
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05-21-2007 08:50 PM  13 years ago
DaveThomasPilot

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Apex, NC

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Thanks Russ
I think we must have posted at almost the exact same time. Obviously, I hadn't read your post yet when I submitted mine.
The best way to earth the boom is to take a small piece of (servo type) wire from the output shaft bearing to the boom and then another wire from the boom to the engine mount.
My Logo 10 (electric) engine mount is plastic. Does this still make sense?

Good idea on the mixing to reduce gain. So, mix aileron and elevator to gyro gain. Shoot for a travel reduction of about 10% at full cyclic deflection? Say, reduce travel on gyro gain channel from 75% to 65?
Also use Expo to create the desired feel around centre stick
.

Do you mean the cyclock expo or transmitter expo? Obviously, it's more convenient to use transmitter expo, but I was wondering if there was a good reason to use Cyclock expo if my transmitter has that function.

Thanks,

Dave Thomas
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05-21-2007 11:40 PM  13 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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Thanks Russ,

I have grounded(earthed) my raptor and the glitching has gone.
Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
Spartan RC Distributor
Outrage Helicopters
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05-22-2007 01:23 PM  13 years ago
DaveThomasPilot

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Apex, NC

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Russ,
The best way to earth the boom is to take a small piece of (servo type) wire from the output shaft bearing to the boom and then another wire from the boom to the engine mount if it is metal or to frames and posibly engine casing of the mount is plastic
I want to try this, but I'm sure how to attach the wire to the tail rotor output shaft bearing. Solder it to the "face" of the bearing?

Also, since both the frames and motor mount are plastic, I think I'll first just try electrically connecting the tail rotor shaft bearing to the aluminum boom.

Thanks,

Dave
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05-22-2007 05:32 PM  13 years ago
RussD

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UK

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Hi Autoeject,

Very pleased the earthing worked!

Hi DaveThomas,

Yes use expo in TX to adjust the stick feel around centre to suit. Once set-up, there should be no need to touch Cycloc settings unless you make changes to helicopter which require re-setting of Cycloc values. If yoyu require more changes to stick feel than the TX expo function can provide, you will have to look towards the gyro interface settings to change the feel of the TX stick response.

Yes mix aileron and elevator to gyro gain and aim for a TX mix reduction of 30-40% as a start. But be aware, this mix should not reduce any travel in flight, but simply have the effect of lowering the TX gain a little for flips / rolls etc. TX Mix ratio values are generally different to ATV values. So 35-40 % mix should equate to a genuine TX reduction that is equivelent of about 10% (guesstimate!). Therefore also raise TX gain by about 8-10 points... but as always please test any changes very carefully!

For earthing, the easiest method of attaching to the outer of the bearing is to drill a small hole in the plastic tail casing where the bearing seats. Then bare back the wire and push through hole so that when you push the bearing in it, the wire will be touching the outer of the bearing. Then check with multimeter for continuity. Good point on plastic frames and mount! Much the same situation as Raptor 50 glow models, where we used to take a wire from the boom to the engine mount. In this case, I would try taking a wire from the boom in a similar way as the tail bearing. So drill a hole in the boom mount where the boom seats and push a small amount of wire into hole. Then remove anodising where the boom will touch the wire and slide boom in and tighten up the boom clamp. Then feed the wire round the frames to the motor. Now use a round 3-mm I.D earth crimp-tag and connect to motor via one of the motor mounting bolts. And if possible check for continuity once again ;-)

Hope this helps!

RussD
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05-23-2007 07:38 PM  13 years ago
DaveThomasPilot

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Apex, NC

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Thanks for all the useful info, Russ.

I added wires to tail shaft bearing and the boom and checked both wires had continuity to tail shaft and boom (respectively). Before connecting the wires, I figured I'd have some fun before "just fixing it", by taking off the main and tail blades, and spooling up the electric Logo 10. I attached DVM between the two wires (one connected to boom, one to tail drive bearing. I wanted to see the voltage build up to at least several hundred volts, and see it collapse on discharge, synchronous with an observed glitch.

(Cool that you can actual run electrics on the bench and do this kind of thing!)

Anyway, I was disappointed to see only a few hundred millivolts of charge build up, even with some pretty healthy rpm. Way too low to have an voltage arc (I seem to recall it takes something like 30K volts per inch to gap air).

But, I wasn't glitching when I quit flying Sunday either, so maybe the graphite was still providing continuity between the boom and tail drive bearing somehow.

Now I plan to wait until glitching starts happening again, then try connecting and disconnecting the wires with the "smoking gun". If connecting the wires doesn't eliminate the glitch, then I'll try also doing the boom to motor thing, though I'm not sure I understand the theory behind that part. (That's a long way for an arc)

Thanks,

Dave Thomas
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06-01-2007 06:30 PM  13 years ago
DaveThomasPilot

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Apex, NC

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The glitches came back this weekend. Turns out the wire connecting tail boom to tail rotor drive bearing didn't help any.

I can now see the glitches on the bench by spooling up with the main blades off. Last night, I tried looking for sparks in a totally dark room, but saw none, even though the glitches kept occuring.

I found that I could eliminate the glitching by touching the tail boom and elevator gyro simultaneously. But connecting or disconnecting the tail shaft wire had no effect.

Tonight I'm going to try shorting the boom to the motor like Russ suggested (though I don't understand the theory behind that one), and maybe wrapping the gyro in tin foil. Also, I'm going to remove the gyro from the tail boom and see if that eliminates the glitching also.

Dave Thomas
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06-01-2007 08:13 PM  13 years ago
VladimirG

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Russia, Moscow

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New video from my trex 600 with cyclock

now all work fine !!
___________________________________
Pilotage-rc team, Russian CSM team, Russian FlightPower team
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06-02-2007 07:01 PM  13 years ago
borneobear

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Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

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Very simple quick questions:

Can the CSM SL720 gyro work with the AP2000i as CCPM mixer?

And can a 'normal' digital servo like the Hitec HS-635HB work with the CSM SL720 Gyro?

Thanks!
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06-02-2007 07:22 PM  13 years ago
lovetofly

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Dallas, TX - USA

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Very simple quick questions:

Can the CSM SL720 gyro work with the AP2000i as CCPM mixer?

And can a 'normal' digital servo like the Hitec HS-635HB work with the CSM SL720 Gyro?
If the AP2000i can take digital frame rate inputs then yes, it will work, and yes, the HS-635HB (or any digital servo) will work with the SL720.
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06-03-2007 02:59 AM  13 years ago
borneobear

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Thanks lovetofly!
But I just found out that the AP2000i does not take digital inputs. oh well.... looks like I'm going back to the GY401.

I love this thread tho. Fantastic info!!
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06-03-2007 04:50 AM  13 years ago
JKos

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Redondo Beach, CA

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Nevermind, answered my own question with a quick peek at the CSM web site.

- John
RR rules!
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06-08-2007 09:22 PM  13 years ago
hedgebird

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New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

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Just wanted to know how many channels you guys are using for the cyclock and 2 x 720s setup

Here is what I am thinking

3 for cyclic ale, pit, ele
1 for rudder
1 for ESC

1 for std. Gyro gain
1 for gyro gain on the two 720's with Y cable.

total 7 channels

Cheers,
Christian
AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
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06-08-2007 09:47 PM  13 years ago
RussD

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UK

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Hi Christian,
3 for cyclic ale, pit, ele
1 for rudder
1 for ESC

1 for std. Gyro gain
1 for gyro gain on the two 720's with Y cable.
Yep thats exactly what I am running via Spectrum DX7 on a T-rex 600 with a Revlock linked to ESC in manual mode.

RussD.
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06-08-2007 09:54 PM  13 years ago
hedgebird

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New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

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Thanks RussD.

That is neat, now I am looking at mounting options, and my current fav. is to hard mount (read: thinly padded servo tape) the 3 units together - was thinking that it would be good if the two gyro's move and vibrate together. and the use the std. 720CMS alu mounting plate and the 4 anti-vibration pads under the little treesome.

Let me know if you agree that this makes sence to have the two gyros "together" so to speak.

Cheers,
Christian
AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
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06-08-2007 10:07 PM  13 years ago
RussD

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UK

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Hi Christian,

Which model do you intend to use this system on?

If it's the T-Rex 600, then check my gallery for a few ideas on mounting, if its your Swift, then I am sure a similar mount or how you mentioned would work fine and no need for base plates etc with electric heli's

RussD
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06-09-2007 05:09 AM  13 years ago
JKos

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Redondo Beach, CA

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Christian,
I had the same idea of mounting all three gyros (tail gyro too) and the CycLock to a cube and then doing vibe isolation to the whole "unit." It would help insure the gyro sensors are all square to each other and make use of the combined mass for better isolation.

I was also thinking the cube could be hollow or mostly hollow to provide a convenient place to tuck a few wires.

- John
RR rules!
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06-09-2007 02:07 PM  13 years ago
hedgebird

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New Canaan, 06840 CT, USA & Copenhagen, Denmark

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John,

Yes, this cube idea would also make good sense to me, but space is a bit sparse on the Swift, but I guess that you E-Vibe, you will have plenty of room

I will still see if I can find a box for the units, I want to have as clean wiring as I can.

Thanks,
Christian
AMA 881220 2 x Swift16 (one Flybarless), 3 x TREX600, TREX450
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