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HomeAircraftHelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › Hobby Services stance on Hyper bearings
11-21-2006 03:45 PM  11 years agoPost 21
Zman

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Florida

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So what would the design flaw be? OS is using the same bearing supplier as everyone else. Even replacement bearings fail in a short period as documented on RR and other forums. Based on what I'm reading the only thing that is left is the environment that you store the heli in.
Dont think the design flaw is the bearing itself, I think that has been proven. One member who has had some success getting more life out of bearing is preloading with a shim (coke can mod) which indicates axial play. You kind of make my point with your statement about OS using same bearings. This is true, so why hasnt my .32 .61 or 10 other engines being stored same place as the hypers gone bad?

Z

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11-21-2006 04:01 PM  11 years agoPost 22
DS 8717

rrProfessor

Here wishing i was somewhere else

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
So what would the design flaw be? OS is using the same bearing supplier as everyone else. Even replacement bearings fail in a short period as documented on RR and other forums. Based on what I'm reading the only thing that is left is the environment that you store the heli in.
In my first OS50 SX the rear bearing only lasted about 3 gallons of fuel. I always run the engine dry and use castor oil afterun oil after every session. This was in an XCELL 46 with a good cooling system and did not run it lean. I only installed a Ceramic rear bearing and the bearing lasted at least twice as long before i replaced the Engine with a new 50 HYPER. The bearings in the Hyper only lasted about the same amount of time as the original 50 SX bearings did,i removed the used ceramic bearing from the previous engine and installed it in the Hyper and it continued to run for many more gallons. The ONLY thing i changed was the bearing it self,used the same fuel. I did manage to damage a ceramic bearing in the hyper when i let someone else fly my EVO and he managed to run he engine hot and some big chunks came off a few of the ceramic balls. I have sent the bearing to Paul for him to look at.DOUG

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED

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11-21-2006 04:03 PM  11 years agoPost 23
hootowl

rrProfessor

Garnet Valley, Pa.

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There is very little axial load on the shaft. Loosness in the axial shaft shouldn't destroy a bearing especially when there are no significant axial loads. Maybe the Hyper crankcase design isn't allowing sufficient "wetting" of the bearing?

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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11-21-2006 04:15 PM  11 years agoPost 24
Zman

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Florida

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There is very little axial load on the shaft. Loosness in the axial shaft shouldn't destroy a bearing especially when there are no significant axial loads. Maybe the Hyper crankcase design isn't allowing sufficient "wetting" of the bearing?
That is certainly a possibility hoot and would fall into the design flaw theory. This last bearing had zero corrosion on it, just started making one heck of a racket all of sudden. Pulled the bearing and couldnt get over how notchy it felt.

Z

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11-21-2006 07:10 PM  11 years agoPost 25
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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I too believe it bad bearings,,,

corrosion,, when someone like myself adds 3 oz of castor to the first gallon, 2oz to the 2nd gallon and 1 oz to the 3rd gallon and the bearing goes bad in 2.6 gallons while other bearing don't go bad it's not a problem do to fuel !!

after adding all that castor to my fuel~ when I removed my backing plate there was a puddle of castor in my motor but the bearing was bad,, and this motor was never run lean !!

what's going on is OS is getting some bead bearings at times..

Jim

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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11-21-2006 09:07 PM  11 years agoPost 26
Roamer

rrVeteran

Albuquerque, NM

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Design wise, everyone is assuming that the size of the OS50 bearing is large enough to actually handle the loads being applied to it. The OS50 is probably around 50% more powerful than the original OS46H, but the bearings are exactly the same. That also means the power pulses being applied to the bearings (mainly the rear bearing) is not also 50% stronger than original.

Given the high failure rate, I have to wonder if the bearing just isn't large enough to handle the shock loads the crank is receiving from the piston under power.

-RRRoamer

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11-21-2006 10:12 PM  11 years agoPost 27
Droid

rrElite Veteran

Deep down in the Southwest- UK

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I can't go past DROID's opinion on this - change the rear bearing on a regular basis. The next question is: how often
I don't know, bearings dont last forever if you are running high headspeeds then the life will deteriorate rapidly i keep a spare set and can sort of feel when its time for a change, normally when blowing plugs for no reason. By that time the airframe normally needs a thorough clean down check over!

After all i'd rather throw $10 at bearings than $$ at pistons and liners, or worse crankcases!!

Quotes may have been changed for my own amusement

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11-21-2006 10:40 PM  11 years agoPost 28
supertigre

rrApprentice

Castle Rock, Colorado

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failures
I have several dozen failed bearings in my shop sent in by heli fliers who have a LOT of experience with engines and tuning. These bearings are all from Hypers and from various manufacturers. The only common thing about them is they failed after a very short period of time. I do not subscribe to the corrosion theory as I have quite a few stainless steel bearings in the group. I also don't think that microwelding is the primary cause as there are many hybrid ceramic bearings in the lot. I also don't think that the bearing application is necessarily at fault either as this is the single most common bearing used in model engines. It is used in most 40-50 size two strokes as well as four strokes up to at least .91 Saitos. I also can't go along with crankcase design limiting oil as the crankcase is virtually identical to their aero engines.

What is left? The LV oil statements MAY have some validity, Most of the bearings were run with extremely LV oil but that could also just be due to the fact that LV oils are so common in fuels nowdays.

Paul Mcintosh
Owner-CRCustom.com - custom vinyl lettering, banners, signs

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11-21-2006 11:16 PM  11 years agoPost 29
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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So Paul, what about the pre-loading theory?

Do you think the SS ones are failing since the SS is not as hard as bearing steel?

  

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11-21-2006 11:17 PM  11 years agoPost 30
Droid

rrElite Veteran

Deep down in the Southwest- UK

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You say LV oil may have some valididty, but to be honest if we talk about full size engines for a minute a synthetic replacement oil for a particular motorcycle engine is a lower viscosity than its semi synth or mineral counterpart.

So are we saying the lower viscosity or the lack of castor contributes?

How many have their fans too tight /not tight enough? What are the tolerances on crankshaft expansion along its length during rich/ lean mixture settings?

Too many variables!

Quotes may have been changed for my own amusement

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11-22-2006 12:23 AM  11 years agoPost 31
supertigre

rrApprentice

Castle Rock, Colorado

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Oil viscosity is just as important to full size engine as it is to model engines. Go too low and you will see the same kind of failures. A lower viscosity oil will flow easier. One bad thing about this is the oil will be easier to squeeze out of bearing surfaces. When the oil is force fed with a pump under pressure into the bearing areas, you can get away with a little lower viscosity. Model engines don't have this! The recent move to lower viscosity oils in full size is due to a couple of factors: the need for less fluid friction (higher gas mileage) and better engine design and machining practices. Unfortunately, neither is a feature of model heli engines.

The preloading theory is intriguing but it changes a couple of parameters at the same time so it is hard to say that it "cures" the problem. I would like to see it done on a couple dozen engines that have a history of eating bearings and then see what happens. One thing it does is contradictory to having the bearing last. Adding any axial preloading to a bearing not specifically designed for it will cause faster wear. It is a complex set of relationships that have to be balanced.

SS bearings are usually hardened to Rockwell 60 which is only a couple of points lower than AISI bearing steel. The fact that a lot of SS bearings are lasting a long time indicates that the metal is up to the task.

Paul Mcintosh
Owner-CRCustom.com - custom vinyl lettering, banners, signs

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11-22-2006 12:28 AM  11 years agoPost 32
Zman

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Florida

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Paul, Saw your post on my thread in RCU http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5015350/tm.htm, . I really hope Bax takes you up on your offer to send him some bad bearings to inspect. I had no idea how much of your sales were for hyper bearings alone

Z

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11-22-2006 12:30 AM  11 years agoPost 33
StillTryin

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Perth, Western Australia

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Yes, there are many variables and possibly we will never have an answer, hence the wisdom of the "replace regularly" approach.

Regarding oils - I've spoken to some mechanical engineers about this and they too wonder about the low viscosity question. Lubrication is as much a black art as a science but one thing that is agreed is that oils lose viscosity as the temperature rises. You start with thin oil and end up with very thin oil indeed, perhaps insufficient to maintain the required separation of the moving parts in the bearing.

Hootowl - planker engines generally use standard viscosity oils such as Morgan's Blue or Klotz Techniplate 200 and they are also air cooled.

Having also had a bearing failure in my Hyper but NEVER in any other engine in 15 years of R/C experience, I'm moving back up the viscosity scale, now running half and half Klotz 200 with Klotz 198.

Time may tell

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11-22-2006 12:38 AM  11 years agoPost 34
Chopper Man100

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Canton GA.

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I didn't read through this whole thread. OS never admits there problems until super pressure is applied by the public. Remember the 46SXH. They said there was never a problem with the carburator or that there was never a problem with engine. It was only at the end of the life of the 46 when they were pushing the 50 that they admitted there was a problem with it. If they could only get the 50 to be like the 32 as far as relieablity, smooth running ect., it would be a great engine, until then... come on you ginny pigs, keep trying our engines!

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11-22-2006 12:50 AM  11 years agoPost 35
Zman

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Florida

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didn't read through this whole thread. OS never admits there problems until super pressure is applied by the public.
Your right on. That was one of my main purposes when I started the thread in RCU to Baxter which eventually led to this thread being started.

Z

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11-22-2006 01:25 AM  11 years agoPost 36
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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Do we have a list of low and high viscosity fuels? It would be interesting to see if it's possible to equate bearing failures with a particular fuel type.

  

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11-22-2006 02:12 AM  11 years agoPost 37
supertigre

rrApprentice

Castle Rock, Colorado

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LV fuels
Cool Power uses extremely LV oils, something on the order of 5W. I don't know of any lower vis oil than that. Magnum, Wildcat and Powermaster are in the 20-30W range and most castor is 40-50W.

Paul Mcintosh
Owner-CRCustom.com - custom vinyl lettering, banners, signs

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11-22-2006 03:48 AM  11 years agoPost 38
Rick

rrApprentice

ny, ny

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Bax said:

Modern fuels help accelerate corrosion damage, and don't do a particularly-good job of protecting the engine. Modern practices also help accelerate corrosion, because the engines are not being protected between uses, especially if there's a significant amount of time between uses. Finally, the type of operation can also help, because of stresses put upon the engine.

So what he is saying is the engine will last longer if you don't use it - or - it is not meant to be used in any way that will inflict usage on it.

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11-22-2006 08:15 AM  11 years agoPost 39
ShempHoward

rrKey Veteran

San Francisco, Ca - too many beggars + bad drivers

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Hobby Services is very lenient when it comes to doing engine repairs both in and out of warranty - at least they have been for me over the years BUT they will never admit there is any design flaws or poor quality parts
used in OS engines. They always blame it on user error regardless.
Why they do this I have no idea.

Many years ago after peeling several 46FX ABN liners and having the problems resolved by Hobby Services who faulted me directly, I contacted OS in Osaka Japan and expressed my disappointment. They apologized profusely and explained
that they should have tested the engine with American Glow Fuels whch they seemed to feel was the problem causing the peeling. I cant believe that its just Americans who have issues with OS engines. As for bearing problems I have never had any but the only Heli engines I own are a 32SX-H Ringed and a 61SX-H WC which I run on Cool 15% Nitro with 4 ounces added Klotz. Maybe some of these bearing failures are due to excessively hard use??

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11-22-2006 12:39 PM  11 years agoPost 40
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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They always blame it on user error regardless.
Why they do this I have no idea.
The reason they do this is simple. They're a business and they're in business to make a profit. The last thing they want to do is replace every engine with this problem ever made. As long as they take care of the problem quietly with those who report it all is well.

Years ago when I converted my Ergo 30 to an Ergo 46 with an OS 46 in it the bearing fell apart after a gallon or two and metal went through the engine ruining it. I sent it in and received a brand new replacement in short order. That was quite a few years ago.

  

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