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10-27-2006 04:42 PM  12 years agoPost 21
Razmo

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Chicago

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Some news regarding the main blades.....

The introduction of the glass blades (neither of the blades that darkhorse listed) in the X3D kit is not a mistake. MS reports that the new glass blades (narrower chord and grey in color) provide a performance boost to that of E489.

Raz

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10-28-2006 01:37 PM  12 years agoPost 22
DarkHorse1

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Gloucester UK

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Ah I see, that's been kept quiet, I suspect glass blades are cheaper to make than CF . Thanks for the info.

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10-28-2006 07:41 PM  12 years agoPost 23
Razmo

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Chicago

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Could very well be true.

p.s. Does anyone know if a quality main blade balancer for micro blades exists?

Raz

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11-12-2006 03:31 AM  12 years agoPost 24
Razmo

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Chicago

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Well, I've finally pieced the bird back together but converted it to an X3D.

I still seem to have cyclic interaction? I can jab the cyclic in either fore, aft or roll and I can see E073 slightly bounce on its pins. I assume this shouldn't be happening??

I am using a set of servo mounts that are similar to the duzi mounts but allow the center of the servo horns to sit under the swashplate ball links instead. They are pretty cool.

Are you guys able to apply fore, aft, or roll cyclic stick while maintaining a rock solid E073?

Raz

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11-12-2006 02:47 PM  12 years agoPost 25
Fit

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Temasek

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Frankly i have never been able to have completely no interaction.
Theres bound to be some up and down movement as i move the cyclics.

Hornet X3D : GY401, 9CHP, AXI, MS116+____Evo 50, 50SXH

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11-12-2006 10:17 PM  12 years agoPost 26
Razmo

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Chicago

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It seems possible to be able to maintain a rock solid E073 somehow. I also don't think my servo horns are "exactly" set at 90 degrees. Given subtrim adjustments when resetting the servo horn placement, you can only eyeball it, you know. I wish there was a precise way to get them perfectly matched.

I'm also very dissapointed in the X3D main shaft. I think it's bent! Upon the first spoolup (while holding it in my hands) I noticed it. What a dissapointment in quality.

Does anyone know where I can get a "true" hardened main shaft for the X3D? Crap, MS should be paying for this one!

Raz

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11-12-2006 10:37 PM  12 years agoPost 27
DarkHorse1

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Gloucester UK

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Check if you were shipped an old X-3D kit with an E366 butter soft steel shaft (can bend with finger and thumb). The later issue E466 is a much stronger hardened steel main shaft but remember it is only 3 mm thick. Annoying but not the end of the world.

I haven't had any noticeable problems with CCPM interactions once I got the geometry right. Maybe you have a lazy servo in there, if they don't all move with the same rate at the same time the head will pop. So far I've only used 3xMS-022's and 3x Futaba s3108, what servo's are you using?

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11-13-2006 05:15 AM  12 years agoPost 28
Razmo

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Chicago

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It is E366, I'll have to give Henry a ring tomorrow. What do you mean by E466 only being 3mm? All my main shafts are 3mm.

I'm using the new Futaba s3110's. I tested them and they all seem to be syncronized. As I mentioned, I can only eyeball the 90 degree servo arm setup. Do you know of any other method to get the servos arms exact?

Raz

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11-13-2006 09:35 AM  12 years agoPost 29
DarkHorse1

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Gloucester UK

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Sorry I meant that 3 mm main shaft diameter is quite thin for the energies that can be involved for the Hornet, particularly if crashed. Yea, I ran a soft E366 for about a year, so soft I was able to straighten in the field. Now I'm back using even softer steel for custom shaft lengths on my stretch XL Hornet.

Those servo's should be fine, looking 90º is close enough. I wonder what's going on with your setup, do you have vertical perpendicular servo to swash links? Can you post any images of your layout at zero pitch?

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11-14-2006 06:37 PM  12 years agoPost 30
Razmo

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Chicago

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I'll post some pics...

I just remebered that I sent my 9CHP in for service yesterday. I'll post some pics upon receiving it.

Raz

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11-26-2006 10:46 PM  12 years agoPost 31
Razmo

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Chicago

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Well, I decided to pull everything apart before taking some pictures because I've had no luck getting rid of cyclic interaction (a bouncing E073 when cyclic roll or elevator is applied) using a set of mounts that are similar to that of the Duzi mounts. I am having a hard time believing the cause of interaction is the servo mounts but I have found that one of the "roll" servo links has to be shorter or longer by a fraction (a quarter turn) because of the placement of the servo arms to that of the swashballs. This may or may not be enough to create interaction?? I did leave the head linkage per the instructions but I don't see why this should change.

I think I may try the stock X3D servo mount instead. I do hate trying to place a sticky servo in an exact spot but it may be my only shot at getting rid of cyclic interaction? Hmmmm, I wonder if soapy water will ease servo placement??

Anyhow, my goal is to maintain a ROCK SOLID E073 when fore/aft/roll cyclic is applied BUT I seem to only be loosing my hair over it ;(

Raz

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11-26-2006 10:51 PM  12 years agoPost 32
Micro-Maniac

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Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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I have a suspicion it's your 9c causing the interactions and not your servo mounting etc - The 9c has about the worst eCCPM performance caused by latency - I'd see how another radio system behaves in your heli before pulling your hair out toying with the mechanical layout.

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11-27-2006 01:49 AM  12 years agoPost 33
MJWS

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Airdrie, AB - Canada

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LOL. Buy a JR. Hey I heard Airtronics was super fast. No one has EVER gotten ccpm to work well on a 9C.
[/sarcasm off]

Sorry couldn't resist. It is a combination of mechanics and programming. Not whether your radio is .002ms faster in response.

My H2 is stock plastic. Bell hiller added. Cheap BMS 371's glued to the servo plate. The servo plate is slightly stiffer than stock as I used music wire vs carbon. There is ZERO collective to ail or elevator interaction. Put in all the non collective commands you wish and the top stays rock solid. (Happens to be on a 9C as are many many other CCPM heli's)

For set up keys would be. All servo arms the exact same length. Same spline and arm no if possible. This should give us a setup that is dead parallel to the servo plate, if subtrim is necessary it will be exactly the same on all servos. We want our linkages to the swash as vertical as possible. Centered over the arm linkage not the servo output. So we have a dead level arms. Lengths the same. Linkages the same. Linkages dead vertical and directly under the swashballs. Swashplate dead level. This is 'ZERO'. There should be almost no slop in the system at this point. For a typical symmetrical set up we'd level everything else from here and this would be zero pitch.

We don't need all that much throw. So I use a hole on the servo arm in close enough to let me get EPA's up to 120 (some micro servos don't like very high endpoints so I don't use 140). And keep Swash AIL AND ELE values high (100). This gives us a little better resolution.

You should easily be able to see any interaction with just the swashplate on. Collective movements should be uniform with no tilting of the swash. Roll should only move the rear two servo's with swash staying level. Pitch (ele) should not introduce any unwanted collective or roll. If it is wrong here... it will only be worse later. Work on the geometry. If one servo isn't uniform in centering or speed swap it out.

The geometry on my hornet isn't dead perfect. But you still can't see or feel any interaction. Just work from the bottom up testing as you go and paying attention that things are centered and uniform. It's like building a house you start with a firm foundation and add one part at a time checking level and square as you go.

Good Luck. She can be a pretty tricky little beast. Hopefully you find the challenge interesting and are not just dying to fly.

Mike

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11-27-2006 02:13 AM  12 years agoPost 34
Micro-Maniac

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Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Some interesting points and many of 'em the reason I'm ditching the Duzi servo mounts for a tray again - But Intruder's mounts supposedly don't share the same poor geometry issues though (from what I know of 'em) -

As for the 9c latency that's no joke - My DX6 has horrible latency as well and it was visible latency when I observed it on my BCP after someone else complained about it - When giving smooth slow roll commands the swash behaved perfectly with no interactions - But giving swifter roll commands the swash would dance up and down on the main shaft - The other guy's sounded worse than mine but mine exhibited the same behavior none the less - The 9c latency is quite a bit better in PPM than the DX6 but I certainly wouldn't count it out as the culprit just because someone else says theirs works fine as it still seems to be exhibiting the same behavior.

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11-27-2006 04:20 AM  12 years agoPost 35
Razmo

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Chicago

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MJWS,

It wasn't possible to get all subtrims equal. I thought this should have been the case but each servo seems to have a different center on the same spline? Is everyone able to equalize subtrim adjustments? If so, this leads me to think that my Tx is doing something funny BUT I just sent her in for service and they reported no problems?

Also, when I equalized all 3 servo links with my servo arms 90 degrees to the main mast and the servo links as vertical as I could get them, my swashplate tilted backward.

I was toying with the option of 120 EPA as well.....

Raz

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11-27-2006 04:43 AM  12 years agoPost 36
Micro-Maniac

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Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Depends on the servos and arms used I think - Most of my experience is with HiTec servos whose arms will be orthogonal to the servos depending on which way they're attached - One way they'll be 0°/90° and turned around 180° they will be 15° off - So if I use the double-ended arms and orient them correctly on each servo I usually end up with equal or no sub-trim on all of them -

-

More importantly than the linkages' relation to anything on the heli is their relation to the servo arms they're attached to - But it's nicer when that point falls directly in line with the swash ball links while orthogonal to everything else - Servos/Arms/Mast/Swash/Etc -

-

The higher EPAs and shorter servo arms sounds interesting - It might create higher rotational deflection ratios - But it would also create higher resolution and near linear linkage travel - Completely opposite of my idea to decrease resolution in favor of a 1:1 servo arm to swash plate rotational deflection ratio.

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11-27-2006 05:40 AM  12 years agoPost 37
Razmo

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Chicago

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I'm not sure what the deal is with my s3110 servos. They all have a different center on the same spline. This REALLY makes it difficult (if not impossible) to get everything equal which is likely contributing to my cyclic interaction.

I just came across something interesting. I'm using the new Berg 7P Rx that has a little LED that illuminates at signal loss. When I apply full left/right aileron and let go of the stick my servos skip to center and the LED will flash a couple times. This must relate to the poor latency known to the 9CHP. When I apply left/right without letting go of the stick, I see no LED flash BUT it's still very possible that latency is happening.

Yes, with an analog servo, using total endpoint increases resolution as well as provides more power at nearly any position. I think I might try this...

p.s. I was thinking a little soapy water between the servo tape and the plate should allow you get the servo positioned accurately...

Raz

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11-27-2006 07:46 AM  12 years agoPost 38
MJWS

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Airdrie, AB - Canada

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Most of the time if I grab a few servos straight out of the box it seems on a four arm horn... They will all be the same arm when I go for a particular angle. Not the end of the world if it isn't.

All we really need is to make sure we are as similar mechanically as possible. Mine were dead equal. A few others have been as well. Haven't done a micro heli with 3110's but I have some on foamies they are good and center well. I'm pretty sure they are like the hitecs, when you rotate 1/4 turn the angle changes.

If the angles are off you introduce differential throws. A little subtrim isn't the end of the world, but if it is much over 10, there is probably a better mechanical solution.

I would bet my paycheck this has nothing to do with your radio malfunctioning. Or any type of latency issues. The only way latency comes into play is with full blistering fast stick movements, and you'll need a scope to spot it. Your eye isn't good enough. You will find that even slow movements of the swash will introduce the EXACT same interaction.

Verify your set up on the bench. When the arms are parallel on a flat surface. They will touch a table at the exact same time when you add collective. You might spot a lazy servo this way. Long arms would magnify this even further. Most of the time servos from the same batch are going to be very similar. But you never know. Long arms and large movements will let you spot the differences. If they are perfect by eye on the bench they are more than adequate on this heli.

The magic is in the angles and linkages. There will always be a little compromise, but it doesn't typically have much effect on flight.

One way to verify. (Perhaps a little out there.) Get a fresh model so you can be certain of no extraneous mixes, trim, or subtrim. Set up your servos and linkages to swash on your bench. Drill a hole for the mainshaft. Hotglue the servos... (Use any method you want. That would be quick for me.) Get the geometry dead on. Should be very easy as there is no heli in the way. Place some bamboo skewers or light carbon rod across the swash so you have very long arms sticking out showing even the slightest interaction. Heck you could measure with a ruler. You'll find when everything is square, and all linkages and arms are equal. It'll work perfectly. Compare it to the actual heli and see where the compromises are. Now we just try and duplicate our 'perfect' set up.

Sometimes if you can see how simple it is on the bench you can move past my radio, or servo's must be broken. It's just cumulative small (or large ) errors in set up.

Good Luck

Mike

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11-27-2006 08:26 AM  12 years agoPost 39
Micro-Maniac

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Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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I agree about the importance of a proper mechanical setup - I preach this stuff all over this forum - I even have a setup motto of "Everything Centered - Everything Level - Everything Orthogonal" -

But appearantly those of us who claim to have visually witnessed the effects of latency are a bunch of liars because someone is too in love with their radio to admit that it could have a flaw -

Listen -

You don't even need another radio system to compare with to test it out - Just articulate the swash both slowly and quickly - If deviations occur only during quick commands then you know the problem is caused electronically - If deviations occur during both quick and slow commands then you know the problem is caused mechanically - It doesn't even have to behave perfectly - It just has to behave the same at all speeds as speed alone won't change the behavior - But latency which occurs with speed will.

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11-27-2006 03:42 PM  12 years agoPost 40
MJWS

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Airdrie, AB - Canada

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Captain,

I'm not calling you a liar. Can you see how slow a dx6 is... sure. It's well documented. You haven't seen latency, by eye, on a 9C, 8103 or any other decent FM radio. And tell me again what it looks like exactly. A pro may be able to feel the difference on a completely blinged out crazy fast heli. Mere mortals not so much. Mere mortals, on a sloppy hornet with VERY SMALL THROWS. It's a stretch.

Consider for a second how many thousands and thousands of ccpm heli's are set up on 9C's. This is one of the most widely used heli radios. If latency was a significant issue we would have been fighting it YEARS AGO. If it was latency. NO 9C's would work. The problem would be built into every single one.

I'll always be slow to blame the equipment. I have JR radio's 8103's and Futaba 9C's. Not even close to being a radio zealot. By all means swap it out... the fresh set up may even work. But the berg 7 isn't showing latency... and it isn't causing his hornet to pop.

Like I said anything can happen on a rainy day. I would bet if he sent you the radio and heli you'd have it sorted in no time without swapping electronics out. I know I would.

Mike

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