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09-08-2006 11:52 PM  14 years ago
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Ruff

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"Teaching Kids to Kill"
Another good read. Curious to hear comments on the below statements.

Ruff

"Teaching Kids To Kill"

By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
Phi Kappa Phi National Forum, Fall 2000, 2500 words

Authors note: This was published in Phi Kappa Phi “National Forum,” in their Fall 2000 issue. "National Forum is one of the most prestigious, interdisciplinary, academic journals. An earlier version was published in “Christianity Today,” “Saturday Evening Post,” “US Catholic,” “Hinduism Today,” and many other US publications, and it was translated and published in periodicals in nine different languages. I am the copyright holder, and I authorize reproduction and distribution of this article by the readers of this web page.

A Case Study: Paducah, Kentucky
Michael Carneal, the 14-year-old killer in the Paducah, Kentucky school shootings, had never fired a real pistol in his life. He stole a .22 pistol, fired a few practice shots, and took it to school. He fired eight shots at a high school prayer group, hitting eight kids, five of them head shots and the other three upper torso (Grossman & DeGaetana, 1999).

I train numerous elite military and law enforcement organizations around the world. When I tell them of this achievement they are stunned. Nowhere in the annals of military or law enforcement history can we find an equivalent "achievement."

Where does a 14-year-old boy who never fired a gun before get the skill and the will to kill? Video games and media violence.

* A Virus of Violence..........The per capita murder rate doubled in this country between 1957 --when the FBI started keeping track of the data--and 1992.
* Killing Unnaturally..........Just as the army is conditioning people to kill, we are indiscriminately doing the same thing to our children, but without the safeguards.
* The Methods in this Madness: Brutalization..........Brutalization is designed to break down your existing mores and norms and to implement a new set of values that embrace destruction, violence, and death as a way of life.
* Classical Conditioning..........Classical conditioning is like the famous case of Pavlov's dogs you learned about in Psychology 101.
* Operant Conditioning..........The military and law enforcement community have made killing a conditioned response.
* Role Models........... No matter what someone has done, if you put his picture on TV, you have made him a celebrity, and someone, somewhere, will emulate him.
* Unlearning Violence..........What is the road home from the dark and lonely place to which we have traveled?
* Fighting Back: Education, Legislation, Litigation..........The following list of nonviolent video games has been developed by The Games Project.
http://srcha.com
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09-09-2006 12:13 AM  14 years ago
Jaguar

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could'nt
agree with you more this says it all
Tempest FAI,Stratus,Fury Extreme,Raptor90se,Rex450se,vigor cs, wow I have a real problem
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09-09-2006 12:17 AM  14 years ago
drdot

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So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

Natural history and anthropology say it all..The human animal has the binocular vision of the predator..Violence is innate, our civilization is the aberration....

John.
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09-09-2006 12:29 AM  14 years ago
sandals4me2

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Anthem, Arizona

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* Operant Conditioning..........The military and law enforcement community have made killing a conditioned response.
I will disagree with you on this point, Yes the Mil trained me to kill and trained me good, But I have been blessed to not to have to use it once I was home. If you attacked my familey yes I would kill you. But I didnt need the Military for that. As far as alot of things oh its the games or the movies the watch. I am sorry I find it BS. When I grew up I called my parents Mom or Dad not by there first names. Others were Mr. or Mrs. so and so. Lie to someone Oh hell no. Steal something, Are you crazy? The problem is the enviroment people have raised there kids. The schools cant slap them down the parents wont do it, the legal system has it hands tied behind her back. Bring fear back to raiseing a kid see if it makes a difference. I still call older people by Mr. or Mrs. they deserve my respect. Go ahead hit Jimmi for calling your wife a C#nt. You will go to jail. This is taught at school call Social Services and bango your gone. What a load of crap.

Kevin
No these are not my sandals, Im just keeping them warm. 08/23/60-05/26/06 RIP Bro.
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09-09-2006 12:38 AM  14 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Natural history and anthropology say it all..The human animal has the binocular vision of the predator..Violence is innate, our civilization is the aberration...
There you have it. The thin veneer of 'civilization' goes a long way towards masking the true nature of our species -- we're animals first and foremost. To expect our species to behave other than it does makes no more sense than expecting pigs to fly.
op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t
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09-09-2006 12:54 AM  14 years ago
Ruff

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Queen Creek, AZ

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Sandles...
* Operant Conditioning..........The military and law enforcement community have made killing a conditioned response.
I didn't write this article, Col. Grossman did. I happen to be a fan of his and posted it for discussion here.

What is incorrect about the above statement? It is true.

You may have not needed the military training for the kill instinct, but you have to admit it made you better at it, and probably lessened your chances of hesitation at the time.

You are probably better prepared to deal with the aftermath than the layman. However, you would probably agree that killing an enemy solider on a battlefield is much easier to swallow than killing Joe Citizen face to face in front of your house.

Save for a few humans with loose wires, the urge to kill is not normally present. We are conditioned from a young age to find that act reprehensible.

Operant conditioning will overcome the moral factors instilled since birth.

Ruff
http://srcha.com
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09-09-2006 01:37 AM  14 years ago
AGRAV8

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Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

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I dis-agree
However, you would probably agree that killing an enemy solider on a battlefield is much easier to swallow than killing Joe Citizen face to face in front of your house.
Here is WHY.....

WHEN I was put in that situation, I realized that the enemy soldier I was facing was just as strong in his belief that HE was right as I was.

ON THE OTHER HAND, Joe citizen that is doing something to meet the conditions to be slain in front of my house......not so....as he KNOWS what he is doing is WRONG, and he then exposes himself to immediate engagement and ultimately an untimely demise (as he should have probably been dusted before).

Since my return to "Civilian" life, I have been spared the anguish of having to take anothers life. I am thankful for that......but also ready to defend my family and property along with the lives of others when needed.
GOOD guy list-39, BAD guy list-0
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09-09-2006 02:01 AM  14 years ago
Ruff

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Queen Creek, AZ

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However, you would probably agree that killing an enemy solider on a battlefield is much easier to swallow than killing Joe Citizen face to face in front of your house.
My meaning was that a different set of conditions present themselves when ordered to kill enemy soldiers in the military vs killing a fellow citizen in your own town.

Nobody is doubting that the enemy soldiers have conviction and are dangerous to your well being.

I was presenting the idea that it may be easier to kill an enemy soldier on the battlefield than Joe Blow at the Quick Mart. IE: Pulling the trigger on a silhouette (enemy soldier) across the battlefield vs a fellow citizen who dresses, talks and acts like you do.

Get my meaning??

Ruff
http://srcha.com
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09-09-2006 02:42 AM  14 years ago
Inspector Fuzz

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NLA

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It didn't mention..
The article failed to mention the REAL culprit. Single parent households.

JEFF
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09-09-2006 03:23 AM  14 years ago
Sealerman

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Long Island, New York.

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The article failed to mention the REAL culprit. Feminism and the womens "liberation" movement.
Wow Inspector Fuzz how could they miss that?
Think about all of the union violence of the 30's
That senseless Union violence from the 30's is still a problem in this country today.
What changed in late 50's and early 60's is that moms started going to work and they started having babies without daddies.
Yea, those bitches started to want to raise childern on their own because they realised how much fun it is to be a working single parent.
Speaking of lesbians and violence, who here, on this forum, would not love to shoot Rosie Odonnel in the face?
Inspector Fuzz that sounds violent, were you raised by a lesbian?
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