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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-AlignOther › Red Dampners From Ready Heli
09-05-2006 10:53 PM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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The very soft orings that come stock will let the entire feathering shaft move up or down in the head. If you study the relationship between the pitch links and any movement in the feathering shaft, you will see that this movement will add pitch in both main blades in the dierction that would cause the helicopter to decelerate in either "collective direction".
You see this has been exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time. You just have a better way with words than I. That pretty much sums up my thoughts.
If it were as simple as that, then shouldn't he be able to add a degree more of pitch to the red dampeners to get the same feel?
I did add a couple of degrees to the positive to get the same feel. However it still didn't have that spring loaded SNAP when changing directions suddenly. You need flex in order to get that much desired snap. Grab your heli right now and lift up on both blades, study closely as to what happens. My very first post to this topic was trying to say what dg just summed up. Thats exactly how it works, it not only makes sense, but results are very very repeatable. thankyou dg for being able to verbalize what I was thinking this whole enitre time. Very well said.
Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 10:56 PM  14 years ago
caseyjholmes

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stiffer dampening = less headspeed at high load moments. Thus creating less stopping power at full pitch. (The head has no give in the blades and will keep loading up!)

thats how I see it anyways. They will stiffen the dampening like they say, but that might not be such a good thing in WASP's case. He likes the spring and rebound that softer dampeners provide, thus holding headspeed better (because they head gives more under load) and stopping the helicopter faster, with some actual springy rebound from the 0-rings. This makes the stopping power seem better with the stock rig.

Stiffer dampening is ment for increasing cyclic response and preventing too much blade flex in the event of boom strikes. This does not mean it doesn't have other effects on the helicopter as well. (such as wobble at low headspeed before centrifigul force kicks in and centers the blades, and less stopping power due to loss of headspeed from high load on stiffer dampening.)
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09-05-2006 11:01 PM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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yep, you see I like a real snappy setup on my heli. I want it to stop like its hitting a brick wall. Not necessarily change direction, just stop! Stiffer dampening kills that sudden stop. Instead of stopping it flies throguh a couple feet. And for hard 3d this can really get you screwed up in a hurry. Now some may like the way the heli flies with stiffer dampening, not me. All I was trying to say on the subject of dampening. Don't be fooled, dampening does have an effect on collective, particularly that collective snap.Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 11:14 PM  14 years ago
AnnihilaT

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Hi 3D WASP

Hmmm.... its an interesting theory and different from what i originally understood you to be saying. My original impression from your text was that you were saying that the TEETERING action of the feather spindle was giving you extra pitch which of course, im sure you will agree now, would do nothing like you said.

However, if you mean that the ENTIRE spindle is floating straight up or down inside the dampers and head (in other words compressing the o-rings evenly and in the same direction on both sides) I see the logic in this. By that, i mean that i understand the logic behind that theory and how you might get there and must admit that i hadnt thought of that possibility yet.

Having said that, i would still find it very hard to believe that this is what is happening..... ok scratch that.... I just went and grabbed my trex (which has stock dampening but with the widest spacer) and i think you might actually be on to something here. It took me awhile to actually understand what you were trying to say but erm... it certainly does look like with enough pressure you can compress the o-rings evenly on both sides which would raise or lower the entire spindle evenly causing extra pitch to be mixed in to the grips via the lingakes and mixing levers.

Im not convinced yet but im definetly intrigued with the possibility. The doubts i have remaining are that it takes ALOT of pressure to do this and i wonder if there is actually that much force during flight.

At any rate... now that i understand you, Wasp, its indeed an interesting point and one i will be pondering and doing a bit of my own testing with.




A day without sunshine is like, well, night.
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09-05-2006 11:24 PM  14 years ago
AnnihilaT

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Im now in fact so intrigued by this discussion that i took it to the entire board. I want some of the guys that have been flying for years and years to get in on this and tell us what they think.

You can follow it here (if it takes off):

http://www.runryder.com/t283436p1/




A day without sunshine is like, well, night.
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09-05-2006 11:35 PM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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I myself will be doing further testing on this... In no way did I mean the teatering back and forth of the spindle added more pitch. Come on man, do I really sound that dumb? Perhaps I don't word things correctly all the time but come on... I actually think I have a clue when it comes to this stuff. From the results I have gotten I am onto something here. And I plan on doing even more testing to get the heli to stop that much better. Ideally you would want pretty rigid side to side teatering on the spindle, while still allowing it to move up and down a bit. I believe, dont quote me on this, the new Aurora has something like this in the head. And if you've seen it fly it is very very crispy on the collective. I'd love to get my Rex like this, and I will. I'll be sure and post more as I research the subject further. Im going to do some testing with different duramoter o-rings, along with different sizes.Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 11:42 PM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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However, if you mean that the ENTIRE spindle is floating straight up or down inside the dampers and head (in other words compressing the o-rings evenly and in the same direction on both sides) I see the logic in this. By that, i mean that i understand the logic behind that theory and how you might get there and must admit that i hadnt thought of that possibility yet. At any rate... now that i understand you, Wasp, its indeed an interesting point and one i will be pondering and doing a bit of my own testing with.
Thankyou, now we are getting somewhere. I just might not be that big of an idiot after all.
Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 11:59 PM  14 years ago
OICU812

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Wasp and holmes, how long you been flying helis? How many and what kinds have you owned?...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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09-06-2006 12:02 AM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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Although its completely irrelavant, I have 2 Rexs, and have been doing this since February. Now if that discounts my credability, fine. I will get a definative answer from the results of testing I do on my own. I'm going to be doing some head modifications on these things to further prove and or disprove this theory, stay tuned.Timing is everything
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09-06-2006 12:51 AM  14 years ago
OICU812

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Allright I am tuned in!...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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09-06-2006 09:32 AM  14 years ago
AnnihilaT

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Its interesting to note that this theory would only hold true for certain head designs.

For example, on the Synergy N9 you have a delrin sleeve which fits over the feathering spindle. This sleeve has a larger OD in the center of it than it has on the ends. Effectively what this does is support the spindle in the middle of the head and allows the spindle to teeter but prevents it from moving up or down when the dampers become loaded.

On the Raptors you have a different design of the same function. There is a ball raced pin / cog which goes thru the middle of the head with a hole in it. The spindle then fits thru this hole. This also allows the spindle to teeter only and not move up or down in height.

On the trex however, Im now inclined to believe that it could be possible what 3D Wasp is claiming to have experienced. I still find it a bit hard to believe that the difference was so big that it needed a whole 2 degrees of pitch to adjust for it but since i havent done these tests myself it doesnt really matter what i think about that until ive actually tried it myself.

Out of curiosity, which spacers are you using on your trex Wasp? Is it the newest metal head with the newest grips and the wider spacers? Or the thinner ones?




A day without sunshine is like, well, night.
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09-07-2006 09:58 PM  14 years ago
Lorents

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Hello,

Interesting thread

Tried the ready heli dampers today and really liked them. Have been flying with shimmed stock dampers for a while but the shims would wear out the O-rings after a while so it didnt feel right... The red dampers are slightly softer than the shimmed ones but they worked really well and the trex seems to track well in FFF. After a couple packs I was confident enough to try some eye level tic tocs for the first time


What comes around goes around.
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09-07-2006 10:45 PM  14 years ago
bulldogs

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what shimms are you guys using???~TEAM OCHC~
A strong man stands up for himself a STRONGER man will stand up for others.
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09-08-2006 08:30 AM  14 years ago
Lorents

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Hello,

I used out the brass bushings from the plastic seesaw that came with the XL. They fit perfectly on the spindle and have a flange that goes against the stock rubber O-rings and squeezes them. Works really well.

With the readyheli dampers you dont have to use any extra shims.
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09-08-2006 08:33 AM  14 years ago
OICU812

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I never thought of that one Lorents good call, I used some 3mm washers and just dremeled the OD down to where it had some clearance upon compression to the head block. What we need is a mini vbar now for the rex, hehe. ...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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09-08-2006 08:37 AM  14 years ago
Lorents

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What we need is a mini vbar now for the rex, hehe.
Yeah, that would be COOL

It will come eventually - the question is only when? If they could get the volume up on the mini-vbar production it might actually be cheaper to get a kit with no flybar and a mini-vbar since it has less parts?
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09-08-2006 08:47 AM  14 years ago
Lorents

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On the other side... with the low kit prices its probably replacement parts they make money of. Lots of flimsy parts in the head = more replacement parts = more money... crap ...
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09-08-2006 09:42 AM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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Out of curiosity, which spacers are you using on your trex Wasp? Is it the newest metal head with the newest grips and the wider spacers? Or the thinner ones?
I am using the thinner spacers that come with the SE kit. Its a v2 SE kit, so yes new blade grips. I came to notice the same thing about the bigger helis as well. They use a different dampening system than on the Rex. The delrin with the bigger od in the middle keeps the feathering shaft from doing exactly what Im talking about. But at the same time allows it to still teeter. Gives you much more control over the head. But with the Rex there is nothing there to stop the feathering shaft from moving up in the headblock. And believe it or not it did take 1.5 to 2 degrees of pitch to get it to stop equally both directions. And even then it didnt stop as well.
Timing is everything
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09-08-2006 11:50 AM  14 years ago
Lorents

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Oslo, Norway

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Wasp, did I misunderstand your posts or do you really prefer flying 3D with stock non-shimmed dampening?

I tried some pitch pumping manouvres some time a go with stock damping and it didnt work for me at all - it felt sluggish, unprecise and nodded a lot. Hardening the dampers by shimming them made the trex a totally different heli and if I had to recomend just one upgrade to fly 3D with a trex it would be to fix the dampers. RH's red dampers works at least as well as the shimmed ones and should be very durable too. There is nothing wrong with the stopping power in my trex with the red dampers either - yesterday one of the guys watching acutally commented on the sharp stops.

There is one thing that have to be considered when discussing and comparing how our models fly. Tean in the LOGOmaniac Forum said it really well: "one man's twitcher is another man's slug."

(Wasp, I am not saying that you are a slug )
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09-08-2006 12:55 PM  14 years ago
rc_heli_flier

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Cumberland, Md. U.S.A.

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I finally tried the red dampers on my SE last night. I actually thought they felt about the same, perhaps a little sharper. I didn't notice any tendency to make stops less precise. I'm not saying WASP that your's isn't doing this, just that mine didn't seem to. The only thing I noticed is that if the collective wasn't managed well and the head got loaded up and head speed dropped it was quicker to wobble. Other than that they felt good. I'm no great 3D flyer, but I can do flips, rolls, loops, etc. and am starting to work on inverted hovering. Perhaps once I start doing tic-tocs and the like I may notice more of a tendency for the heli to not stop as precise. I'll report on that later.
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