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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-AlignOther › Red Dampners From Ready Heli
09-05-2006 09:53 AM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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As far as proof goes, the proof is in the pudding, not in theory. If I can repeat the results time and time again, how is there any possibility for a different conclusion? The heli does not stop with these dampners, if that goes against what people think about dampening fine, so be it. That is the result with proven testing. If you don't want to believe me fine, it doesn't really matter. Go try them and tell me what you think. And tell me what does happen to the heli when the blade disc goes into a smile at brief periods? With softer dampening the blades "smile" more so than with stiff dampening. Swing your blades out on the bench and bend them up, the heli certainly does this in flight, I can see it with my own eyes. Now what does this do to flying characteristics? Just a question I would like to know. Don't want to sound like im turning this into a personal thing. By all means I could be wrong about the theory I stated, cuz its just that a theory. Why I got the results I got I dont really know, but results are results repeatable at that. And these dampners are the cause of the heli not stopping. There is no other conclusion to draw...Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 10:01 AM  14 years ago
steph

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Think about it, when the heli is shooting toward the ground and you give full pitch briefly to stop it, your actually going a couple degrees more that what statically you have setup. This is because the dampening is allowing the blade disc to, well bend actually, and for a brief moment giving you a ton of pitch.
3D WASP may i ask how long you have been in the hobby.

Dampers don't allow the change of pitch on a helicopter
The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from
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09-05-2006 10:10 AM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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Just a theory steph, I mean really. I could be completely wrong, and by the sounds of it I am. Fine, I stand corrected. But why then does the heli not stop with these dampners? I was under the impression stiffer dampening helped with all this and made the heli much "crispier." Not the case with these, sorry. What conclusion could I draw then? An explanation from anyone? Same thing with blade flex, I tried the v-blades and as im sure you know they have almost no flex. I flew em and they had less stopping ability than my much loved KOK blades, which flex a little bit. Perhaps its just a feel to me as it goes against what everyone is saying here about how a heli works. But I doubt it cuz on-lookers could see the difference in the way the heli flew, it was just so obvious...I'll be the first to admit I dont fully understand the physics of how it all works. But I do know how to fly it, and I can tell you what is better or worse based on my flying. And with these dampners the stopping got worse than with the stock set up. Just my observation, believe whatever you'd like.Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 10:12 AM  14 years ago
AnnihilaT

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But why then does the heli not stop with these dampners? I was under the impression stiffer dampening helped with all this and made the heli much "crispier." Not the case with these, sorry. What conclusion could I draw then? An explanation from anyone?
Dude, ive tried to explain this and others have as well a few times already. Stiffer dampening crispens the CYCLIC response. Dampers have no effect on pitch. Its a DIFFERENT axis of movement entirely. Thats why people are telling you to look elsewhere for the source of your difference in "stopping power" as you call it. No one can definetively tell you on a forum sight unseen what your problem was but several of us have pointed you to possible areas to check. After that if those arent the areas which caused the difference (or perceived difference) then its up to you to investigate and figure it out or just chalk it up to not knowing why they did this and decide to use the compenents you like best.

If, after changing to stiffer dampening, you found the heli to be faster on cyclic maneuvers (flip/roll rate) etc. and a general more crisp and connected feel to the disc, the dampers were doing what they do and what everyone has told you they will do. Any other ill effects you experienced were a side issue or sypmtom of some other factor which was co-introduced at some point when you changed the dampeners or a pre-existing issue perhaps which was masked by the use of softer dampeners.




A day without sunshine is like, well, night.
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09-05-2006 10:16 AM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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Hey im just trying to get an explanation here, nothing else. Why the heck does the heli not stop when I install these dampners, and yes they're installed correctly, give me a break. Dampners were the only thing changed! and when I took them out problem went away! Are you not hearing me? They were the cause of the prolem, nothing else. And no these dampners didn't make the roll/flip rate faster, they did little to nothing, other than slightly (hardly noticeable)crispen up the cyclic. And seem to kill my collective response. Only conclusion I can draw as when I took them out the problem went away. So if dampening is not supposed to have an effect on collective response thats weird, cuz it did, and I could show you privided we lived on the same continent. But whatever man, we can agree to disagree I'm tired of having to repeat myself here.Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 10:18 AM  14 years ago
steph

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3D WASP

There are more factors to what you are trying to say other control surfaces are probably coming into play there has to be a reason behind what you are experiencing.

Tell me your set-up just so i have some idear on you heli.

Motor kv
li-po 3s or 4s ahc
Pinion
Blades type and size
Esc gov mode or fixed
Head speed that you are running
The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from
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09-05-2006 10:28 AM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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ok here you go.... medusa 3400, 3100 hs, 3s, KOK extreme composites 325mm, 100% across the board. With stock dampening, 2 o-rings with the smaller spacer, 10,0,-10 on the pitch. With stock dampening I can get the heli to stop well in both directions equally. Switched ONLY to red dampening, take it out to fly and get almost no positive stop. Plenty of negative. Think hey thats weird, check the pitch 10,0,-10. WOW now thats really weird! ok fine I adjust the pitch to get the heli to stop evenly both directions. Fly for 2 batteries this way. check the pitch after the flights, 12,0,-8! The dampening did help a little on cyclic response. But even when I had it stopping evenly both directions it flew threw, more so than with stock dampening. And trust me on this, I know how to get the heli to stop. Now tell me whats going on, the only thing I changed was the dampening, nothing else. What other conclusion can I draw? I am welcome to an explanation here, unlike what I have been made out to be. All i'm looking for is an answer, and I can stand corrected as I already have.Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 12:50 PM  14 years ago
ShellDude

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WASP, maybe you should change the thread title to:

"I don't understand why my stiff head affects my collective/cyclic".

RH is top notch and my bet is this thread is annoying the cr@p out of him.

duh... nevermind... I just remembered you're not the OP. I forgot he got his question answered to his satisfaction somewhere in the middle of page 1.
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09-05-2006 01:38 PM  14 years ago
rc_heli_flier

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I did get my question answered, but have to admit this has been entertaining!! I never realized such an innocent question could turn into such a lively debate. I still haven't tried them myself due to lack of time to put them on, but will this weekend.
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09-05-2006 02:33 PM  14 years ago
Jon the Rooster

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I never realized such an innocent question could turn into such a lively debate.
Welcome to RR!
Even so, still learning something New here!!
and one more thing "DON'T BE AFRAID!"
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09-05-2006 07:47 PM  14 years ago
TomRex

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Perhaps the Wasp is experiencing the transitional delay that I had untill I did the grip flip. And or the grips are binding as the stock Align grips have no thrust bearings. High head speed is torture for smooth grips..Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact
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09-05-2006 08:11 PM  14 years ago
steph

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It’s interesting in the fact it’s quite well known that you need less pitch to hover inverted than you would use hovering upright.

Something to do with the air is less disturbed while inverted, or the heli is not in the downwash of the blades making them more effective

My raptor climbs faster inverted than up the right way and the pitch range is -9 to +9

This may be what you are experiencing so you are putting more pitch on the top equal everything out leaving less on the lower end.

How do you set your pitch curves I set mine 0-25-50-75-100 that is 0 deg @ 50% and 10 deg @ 0% and 100%

Also check you linkages and balls for tightness a loose head will give you false readings on yur pitch gauge

And check that your swash is not seperating this will cause a big difference in pitch and if it comes loose in flight

What size pinion did you say you had on the medusa
The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from
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09-05-2006 09:06 PM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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Pitch range is set 0-25-50-75-100, -10 at 0, 0 at 50, and +10 at 100. Head is very free, all ball links smooth as silk. With the stock head setup the heli climbs out pretty close to perfectly equal both inverted and right side up. Now after doing some thinking about this I have a few problems with this.
Dampers have no effect on pitch.
I understand dampening by and large has an effect on side to side movement, but it does have an effect on how much the blades can pull up in the headblock together. Why is it that people will put on plastic blade grips to get the heli to not fly through? They are trying to get some flex out of the system in order to get the heli to stop...seen it work...and heard plenty of people doing it on Raptors. Was just talking to Zooms about this, last weekend, along with a guy flying an Ion, they all said the same thing. Another thing why is it that too stiff of a blade like the new v-blades dont stop as well as my more flexible Kok's? I think it all comes back to the slight smile you get out of the blades under momentary full pitch loads. With that said, I think it makes pretty good sense. Dampening has an effect on the "smile" of the blades just as does stiffer blades and plastic blade grips.
Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 09:09 PM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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RH is top notch and my bet is this thread is annoying the cr@p out of him.
My apologies if it is, I think it is a good general discussion about dampening at this point. Perhaps I could start a new thread but this one is obviously already fired up...no need for a new one. Would just fuel the confusion.
Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 10:20 PM  14 years ago
AndreasM

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New Zealand

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Hi,

Just a thought, perhaps with the softer dampners, when you hit the collective the blades pull the entire feathering shaft up (or down) more in the headblock, this would in turn give the blades more pitch, which would feel like more stopping power.

With the harder dampners the feathering shaft is more centered and doesn't get extra pitch.

A!!
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09-05-2006 10:24 PM  14 years ago
3D WASP

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EXACTLY!!! what iv'e been trying to say this whole time! But ive gotten nothing but dampening has nothing to do collective, its a whole different axis. Sorry but you are wrong.Timing is everything
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09-05-2006 10:27 PM  14 years ago
ptarp

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IL

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I would think any flex in the blades/grips would be considered wasted energy. Instead of the lift generated by the blades being transferred to the head block (useable lift), it is consumed by the blades in the form of flex.
Philip
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09-05-2006 10:36 PM  14 years ago
ptarp

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IL

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V-blades: being as stiff as they are, will require less pitch to end up with the same lift vs blades that flex. V-blades load the head quicker as a result of this but should also be more effecient. It takes energy to bend blades...energy that is coming from the motor.
Philip
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09-05-2006 10:43 PM  14 years ago
dg512055

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Union City, TN

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AndreasM has got it right. The very soft orings that come stock will let the entire feathering shaft move up or down in the head. If you study the relationship between the pitch links and any movement in the feathering shaft, you will see that this movement will add pitch in both main blades in the dierction that would cause the helicopter to decelerate in either "collective direction". It is like having power brakes. More deceleration will cause more compression in the orings, which causes more collective pitch input, which creates more deceleration, etc, etc. This would explain the change in collecitve feel with different dampers. EASY !
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09-05-2006 10:46 PM  14 years ago
ptarp

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If it were as simple as that, then shouldn't he be able to add a degree more of pitch to the red dampeners to get the same feel?
Philip
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