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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterAerial Photography and Video › RCAPand FAA regulation
09-09-2006 11:26 AM  14 years ago
Hatim Saeed

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Dubai, UAE

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You need to raise this topic in next PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, the way this thread it going looks like only they can solve this problem! lol

I think you all need to meet in one single place face to face to solve this issue, and it will actually be a good idea to form an association which meets every 6 months to make things easier and discuss posible ideas,

RC AP is growing very fast, and actually its kind of a risk that maybe someone who is new to RC flying tries to get into AP just cause he cant find a decent job, and ends up crashing his heli into someone or an aircraft which will result in a strict bann on flying RC heli above 100FT !!!

I think its in a way good idea to make RC AP a bit difficult so not everyone or anyone can get into it?

And I think best thing wud be to regards is as a proper recognized industry, and develop better quality heli with less chances of crashing! and then suggest FAA to ban the use of full scale heli for Aerial Photography as it posses more risk when crashed then rc heli! just a thought
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09-09-2006 01:32 PM  14 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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I believe that simply put, RCAP does not equal UAS. Should Predators or the like be flying around as they like? Probably not. Are you likely to encounter my heli in your light plane. Not unless your buzzing the neighborhood. At that point, your error, not mine.

Does anyone really fly their camera heli in the proximity of full scale? I don't know about others experiences but I've yet to encounter this situation. Should I or a spotter hear a nearby GA plane I will decend immediatly and wait for the area to clear again. Who wouldn't? Who really wants that risk to others or thier equipment.

Jason is very eloquent and has what sounds like valid arguments. This seems to be how it goes for the typical regulatory onslaught. Take a 'perseved' risk, hype the danger, throw in 'public safety' and squash the small guys rights. Let's not debate the appropriate regulation level for RCAP, let's fight to stop it. Again, flying UAS is not the same as what we do. If you're flying something the size of a manned aircraft you should probably follow those rules. My 'toy' heli hardly qualifies.
RC AP is growing very fast, and actually its kind of a risk that maybe someone who is new to RC flying tries to get into AP just cause he cant find a decent job, and ends up crashing his heli into someone or an aircraft which will result in a strict bann on flying RC heli above 100FT !!!
This is exactly what I mean. Not long ago people were seriously injured in the Macy's parade by runaway ballons. I wonder if those were licensed tether pilots on those ballons? If it's in the air, it must be a threat, no? Don't make the mistake of thinking your blimp cam is safehaven. Just means that no one has looked at you, yet!
Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
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09-09-2006 01:51 PM  14 years ago
Hatim Saeed

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Dubai, UAE

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haha you cant compared Macy's parade ballon to the blimp cam, its like comparing full scale air plane with rc heli

the Macy's parade balloon weighted 515pounds, and th blimp cam with camera just weights 4 pounds.
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09-09-2006 02:29 PM  14 years ago
classic

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Jason is very eloquent and has what sounds like valid arguments. This seems to be how it goes for the typical regulatory onslaught. Take a 'perseved' risk, hype the danger, throw in 'public safety' and squash the small guys rights.
Very well said.

He still can't refute the fact he is "planing" or hoping to make money on this either. the above quote sums it up well.

Jason,
This quote of yours just shows your either just too stupid or the above quote above describes you to a tee.
You obviously have about .3 seconds of experience with real aircraft.
The "dangers" birds pose are minimal when compared to the "dangers" that some UAS pose.
Jason, your soo full of hot air YOU STILL haven't named ONE instance where any AIRCRAFT was ever in danger from a a/p heli. Or even close to a risk.
It has never EVER happened has it?
Hummmm??
Lets see you answer that. "Percived" risk about something that has NEVER happened, not even a close call ever happening really isn't a risk is it??

And since you can't, than the above statement from you is just an outright blantent lie, isn't it?
Just Propaganda spread from a greedy fool trying to profit and elevate himself by creating regs. for a hobby that he thinks he can profit from.
Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!
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09-09-2006 02:35 PM  14 years ago
HawkEyeMedia

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Fort Worth, Texas

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Exactly Choppershot, YOU wouldn't compare your blimp to the ones at Macy's, but to someone like the FAA, IT DOESN'T MATTER. A blimp is a blimp.

That's what a lot of us are trying to say about our RC Helis for AP. We're being compared to the 200 kt Predator drones.

Jason, it's clear your involvement isn't for the AP community, but as a full scale pilot, trying to regulate the AP community to make you feel safer when flying your full scale.

Jason, it's clear the AP community isn't in your best interest. Your Instrument rating is.

That's why I feel it's important that as AP operators, WE get involved and do what we can to limit the amount of regulation at the Federal level for our industry.

Otherwise, you'll have Jason and his instrument rating speaking on our behalf to the FAA.

I'm an instrument rated pilot, too. I have over 800 hours total time. Hitting an RC heli doing AP is an extremely remote possibility. I have hit birds before, and as I recall, none of them had a medical or were authorized to be in my airspace. Two of them were actually flying at night without any lights!
Mark LaBoyteaux
HawkEyeMedia.com
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09-09-2006 02:43 PM  14 years ago
classic

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Two of them were actually flying at night without any lights!
What?!?
How dare they
Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!
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09-09-2006 02:52 PM  14 years ago
Hatim Saeed

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Dubai, UAE

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Well in SHORT lets not let anyone do something silly that will end business for hundreds of AP guys here. The core aim should be to come up with a solution or an association in which all AP guys are kind of qualified, but lets be honest, even if we are busy everyday for a whole month we wud make around or less then $5000.00 and to get into complication of full scale pilot is just not worth it, both needs diffrent skills, and many of us do it as a hobby or as a part time job!

Well yes its true that like blimp cant be compared to a huge zeplin tht carries people same way RC heli cant be compared to a full scale, but if you be honest with yourself RC heli is well capable of killing someone, and that remains the truth.

In the end the aim is to make such rules that not anyone and everyone get into RC AP,

The pilot who used to fly for me, he started his own AP business, and I saw him working the other day and had a big fight with him, you wont belive he was actually flying over a women on the beach while taking shots of a hotel, i told him its not safe andhe said he is very expirence, Now if a guys like him causes an Accident then what happened?? well there is be an immidiate bann on this in this country and all my investment will go down the drain just cause a stupid dint want to play safe!

So in the end, FAA regulation or any other exams, there should be a single authority that everyone should be aware off. like a unified stuff,

There is no point in asking "had anyone died while doing an RC AP" well its always better to take pre cautions rather then cry later on,
and get imposed worst or harsh rules! or possible bann!
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09-09-2006 03:54 PM  14 years ago
patrickegan

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Sacramento, CA

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The flaming started after you ran the commercial pilots license idea up the RCAPA flag pole. No one liked it! IMHO it’s absurd and unnecessary.

p.s. I wouldn’t call Brett’s comments a full fledged endorsement. (We'll see)
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09-09-2006 03:59 PM  14 years ago
HawkEyeMedia

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Fort Worth, Texas

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How high can your blimp go? With a tether, would 1000' be impossible?

Which is more dangerous to full scale aircraft, your blimp at 1000' or my heli at 200'?

Your 4 lb camera mount and gimble is the equivalent of a 4 lb missle traveling at 100 kts to the windshield of a general aviation aircraft.

In fact, I would say YOU pose a greater risk to general aviation then I do because of the fact your equipment is capable of much greater altitude.

And a blimp requires ZERO skills for airmanship.

So you see how easy it is to be singled out as a threat?

As far as the FAA is concerned (in my opinion), I think they are worried about safety to manned aircraft, not people or property on the ground.

As an AP industry, I feel all of us, no matter what platform, heli, aircraft, blimp, etc, have an interest at stake. I've got to spend some time this weekend studying the documents on the ASTM website to educate myself and get up to speed on where we're at with regards to forthcoming regulation.
Mark LaBoyteaux
HawkEyeMedia.com
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09-09-2006 04:21 PM  14 years ago
Hatim Saeed

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Dubai, UAE

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Hey Mark,

Actually according to the rules in Dubai I have to be in contact with the Aviation and Airport even while flying just 200ft, and need to get permission for every single shoot I do and blimp is so big and bright red easily noticeable,

Its less of flying heli and bumping into a real aircraft, but maybe more of a risk chopping someone's head on the ground, i still think flying at 400-500ft is ahrdly a risk to ful scale.

and bt the way I have flown my blimp to 1,600ft! but i always be in touch with the Airport and tell them my location and time,

Hatim
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09-09-2006 05:02 PM  14 years ago
fitenfyr

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Port Orchard, Washington

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Mark,
If you think I am only looking out for me then start participating in the ASTM meetings and voting.
You are now a member and you can "watch dog" me all you want in that arena and here.
You and I should really talk in person or over the phone.
I think a lot of what is said here is lost in the "internet" translations.
I can help you wade through those work items. Some of them are not applicable to our level. There are really only two that are currently.


CJames,
You should really do the same in the standards groups.
You seem to have me all figured out so I think it is only fair that you take it upon yourself to be the marshall of all that is good and fair in the AP world.

Patrick,
The flaming started after you ran the commercial pilots license idea up the RCAPA flag pole. No one liked it! IMHO it’s absurd and unnecessary.
Well I guess your "test" is not a "commercial" license then either huh?
Course you have to have it to get the coveted AP-G or AP-P "rating" at RCAPA and your insurance program is claiming it is required.
There is no difference in the concept only the content and credibility.
If it holds up to the regulation then great, but if it doesn't then a higher standard will probably be asked for.
p.s. I wouldn’t call Brett’s comments a full fledged endorsement. (We'll see)
I didn't say it was a "full fledged" endorsement.
I don't think anybody is in full agreement on anything regarding this.
I know I don't agree with all the things said in the F38 groups nor do I agree with everything that is in the RTCA's Best Practices document.
Great thing about America is we all have that right.

By the way nice spamming of the forums.
I see you posted this EXACT same argument on RCGroups.
I read all 13 pages of responses last night.
Just out stirring the pot again are we????

Honestly this is getting old.
Everyone wants to Bi$%H at me for actually doing something and nobody wants to step up and "fight" me in the standards groups.
If you think I/we are so wrong with the direction then get in the group and start complaining.

Frankly I think most of you are blowing this WAY out of proportion to what is actually happening.

When Mark gets done reading all the information I will be interested in hearing what he thinks.
Feel free to call me anytime next week Mark I would be interested in chatting. Numbers on my website.
Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...
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09-09-2006 05:39 PM  14 years ago
Hatim Saeed

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Dubai, UAE

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this threat will go on this way
Patrick I think you shud jsut close this topic its going no where,
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09-10-2006 02:01 AM  14 years ago
classic

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I just thought of a new name for you.
Jason "The sky is falling" Stiffey
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09-10-2006 03:27 AM  14 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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ChopperShoot

In no way did I mean to compare the dangers of a parade balloon to that of your blimp to persons on the ground. We're concerned here with regulating what is in the air. Your blimp would seem to qualify based on that.

As you stated yourself, your former pilot used poor judgement because he believed he was skilled enought to do so. Would certification have stopped him. Not likely. Are RC heli's dangerous? Most definately. I get far more nervous at a funfly than around RCAP pilots. 3D near a croud is too scary for me. Should we get the FAA after them as well? Bottom line, certified or not, cause harm maliciously or not and the courts will have the final say. There's more than enough laws to cover that as it is now.
You can't stop stupid people from doing stupid things.
Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
Spartan RC Distributor
Outrage Helicopters
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09-10-2006 05:40 AM  14 years ago
patrickegan

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Sacramento, CA

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Jason,

It’s a consensus that counters your beliefs, still no need to go on the attack.
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09-10-2006 05:53 AM  14 years ago
fitenfyr

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Port Orchard, Washington

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I guess we shall see which side of the proposed regulations I end up on.

I am done discussing it on the internet.

My information is here and many other places to read.
Anybody interested can interpret it however they like.
Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...
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09-10-2006 06:05 AM  14 years ago
Hatim Saeed

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Dubai, UAE

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Hello Mark,

You are right that certification from FAA wudnt stop guys from operating unsafe, but its like if a certified pilot crashs the plane you wud think "ah there must be a technical problem, otherwise he is a qualified pilot" now imagine a pilot who is un certified crashs the plane? FAA wud immidiately think that he was no good enough.

sometimes people like FAA wants such rules in place just to save their butts! and thus it gives us recognition as well.
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09-10-2006 07:06 AM  14 years ago
rotoryrob

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Auburn WA

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very dissapointed..:(
wow I have read pages of this thread and find it very sad. I mean where do you draw the line. UAS, UAV, what I consider to be A UAS is something that the military is using like a preditor. I consider myself to be a very good pilot in the R/C world and do A/P on a small scale but even with that I have spent over 12,000 to get started and I mean just to get started. If there were more requirements I think it would drive the ones who can't afford it out and where does it stop? Does a T-rex with a camera mount qualify as a UAS if you were to use it for money? I just love to fly and would hate to see us loose our freedoms to fly and be over regulated to the point of where it is just not worth it. I too have a private pilot license and don't see the relationship. There are ultralites out there I see flying with out pilot license requirement. How about parasails some of the are up 300 feet or more. With the fAA you are checked out on your aircraft before you are signed off how would that happen with an R/C. I would love to get involved with what is going to happen or not. I hate to see what started out as a hobby for all of us turn into something that I can no longer do.
Rotoryrob
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09-10-2006 11:58 AM  14 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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rotoryrob

Well said. Even if there were a 'cheap' route to start AP, does anyone really think some noob is going to be able to just buy the equipment and go for it? Right off he'll have a pile of junk and that'll be that.
Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
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09-11-2006 12:54 AM  14 years ago
MPA

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Australia

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Comes to mind that there is a bit of a lack of foresight as to what will placate those who would regulate you lot.
And cause them not to ground everything like they did here.

The reasoning many offer is all sound and I would agree with most.

Of course there is a high entry level with Helicams that cancels out the potential for anyone who lacks ability to fly long enough to even be a risk before they trash the lot.

But this is not what the regulator want to hear.
Their eyeballs glaze over with boredom.
"Well that may be the case, BUT the law and the regulations blah blah blah"

Excpect to get lots of it anytime you try to paint a common sense picutre to them to sound your case.

This really isnt about safety folks.

Read what I wrote about CASA here and learn from it.
What it is ALL ABOUT for regulator is simply this.

How to cover their arse from any potential situtations of responsibilty being lumbered on them for what we do.

The thought of the paper work involved for them to manage such a situation makes them go even weaker at the knees than they already are.

These are public servants.
You know, YES MINISTER.

Whilst, making it look like they did good things.

CASA it seems has conned everyone outside of Aus that it did a great job of regulating.
Cleared the decks of any operators in the country, but they dont talk about that around the CASA office Ill bet.

They can show how they made the skys safer.

Even if it was by way of banning everything, lets face it putting regulations like they did to RC helis was in effect designed to remove us from the air period.

They made the OC compliance a long long wait to get rid of most who tried, and then the few that would wait that long all need their insurance in tact, even if they have no direct work to pay the premiums with, that accounts for the few more drop offs.

Here we are 5 years later and there is still only 2 of them.
There was 3 Helicams and a UAV
But it seems Bannana Bender has junked his Helicam and become a UAV operator by way of a manufacturer of them..
He's a full size pilot as well.
Seems all his fluff about the good regs would do for Helicams here has ended up with him turning to UAVs instead to make a buck.

No surprise there.

The "question to this problem" seems to me to be:

How do you convince the regulator that you all are not going to leave their arse's swinging in the breeze.
How do you convince them that your gear is just a toy and not worth looking at as a risk to anything.

Lets face it, if you even hint that we are an industry or this is business is providing a full time living.
They will see it as a trouble for them.
The simplest option for them is to get you all out of the sky, then put a big brake on the entrants allowed back in like CASA did..
Convince you by way of long waits and un reasonable amounts of regulations to comply, to ensures most will give up or ignore FAA, and they will only have a few left over putting them at risk of responsibility.

Buggered if I know, but as I see it there is no other option, these public servants are the same everywhere and the way they react is predictable.
#1 cover their arse, #2 remove the threat from the radar.
That is the cheapest and simplest option for them.

CASA write up a storm of regs, but had a problem that no-one was around to use them.
When the CASA lawyers called and told them everything was a UAV to cover all bases, it must have been like all their birthdays come at once.
They now had a method to force people to apply for certification to the regs where before, there where simply no people who it applied to other than one manufacturer..
And at the same time remove all risk of anyone being able to say to them "but you allowed it to happen" in the case of those not covered by the regs. By grounding them all.

More questions than answers.

We can all agree with each other about points made such as Mark just made.
That I agree with myself
but sadly we cannot do much for each other on this even if we agree on what is right and makes sense..

Someone is going to have to face that fact it is a matter of conning the FAA to ignore you guys and make them think that you are not and never will be a risk to them ever having to be told by their supperiors, "you allowed it, you are responsible"
Or having to file a mountain of paper work to report on incidents.

If you cant to that, I suggest you can expect them to deal with you via the YES MINSITER route.
Rid themselves of the problem by and large.

Good luck.
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