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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Zenoah g26puh and problems with it
07-22-2006 11:45 PM  14 years ago
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The Wiz

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Edmonton ,Alberta, Canada

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Zenoah g26puh and problems with it
I have asked many questions about this engine and the very poor operation of it .I have a bad bad bad vibration in my condor gasser and first it ate screws for the vertical stab then it ate a tail boom now it ate 2 servos, Im regreting buying these 2 condor ships , one they are very expensive and two Century seems to want to do nothing about it other then refer me to someone else. I have balanced every thing that can be balanced and asked several times on this forum about the engine and get fluff about how I should have bought a g231 I cant just scrap 2 new engines and buy 2 g231S so I need some advice from some one who has G260puh's and has encountered the same problems if there is some one who can help me, contact me on here and ill send you my phone #
so far I have spent $5K on the helis and another $1600 canadian on replacement parts since I purchased these 2 ships in may of 2006.
Is this usual for a gasser heli? Is Century usually this helpful when u buy a boat load of helicopters and parts?So far I been told to tune the engines shouldnt they be tuned already? and only need minor adjusting for altitude and climate?I like how these helis handle and I like the look and feel ,the lift capacity , when they are flying and not eating themselves to death.Is there any one out there who knows what it was like starting out?
and by the way i finally figured out what the "PUH" stands for
Zack
"Pick Up Heliparts"
some of you good folks on here did give some good advice and when i followed it it worked out pretty well so thanks to all fo you
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07-23-2006 01:51 AM  14 years ago
rbort

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Franklin, MA - USA

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Need to get it balanced
First and foremost you should get your engine balanced at Hanson's. Al does a great job in lightening the piston further than anyone else did in the past to make it match the weight of the G231 piston. This will minimize the vibrations and make the engines more heli friendly.

Second I think (and have heard) that customer service and Century has alot to be desired. If you buy their machines don't expect super support and service from them. Someone correct me if I'm wrong as I don't deal with Century but have read it over and over again here.

G26's are definately more powerful than a G231 so they are worth that extra power if you get them balanced right. A g231 is the easy way out if you don't want to mess with having someone balance the motor for you. However, I will say that an out of box stock G231 still could use flywheel balancing as that is not perfect out of the box.

I think you need to do what I did. Send your motors to Al and have them balance them and then try again with the Condors. I'm sure they will fly better for you then. Oh yeah, you can find the address of Al's place as double u double u double.bhhanson.com.

-=>Raja.
MA 1005 Hanson 27 3DMax, 4488 flts
Spectra-G Hanson 27 3DMax, 3485 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 2090 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 989 flts
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07-23-2006 04:56 AM  14 years ago
Disciple4123

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USA

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I second' sending it to Al. If you want a cheap test though, buy Hanson's lightened G26 piston for $40, plus about $10 for a ring and gaskets. Then put that together and see what you get. That may take care of your vibes. If you send the whole engine in his service and turnaround time is nice and quick as well.

I also developed a serious vibe after getting the HD clutch, and have taken about 6 weeks evaluating it, cannot resolve it; so the heli is destined to be retired. I have a Venture 50 enroute to temp. do AP with. The Condor was great for me prior to becoming problematin in 04-2006, it was perfectly smooth and strong back then. Now it is cursed.
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07-23-2006 02:17 PM  14 years ago
gyan

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Surrey, BC Canada or Blaine Wa.

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I'd send it to Al as well. I had the same issues as you have, & not only was the piston a problem but the flywheel was WAY off as well.
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07-24-2006 11:13 AM  14 years ago
FCM

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Surrey, England

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I cant just scrap 2 new engines and buy 2 g231S
You could buy a 231 piston and jug and see how this works for you instead of a complete engine.

The engine, whatever size you use, will require proper tuning following a break-in period. You must use the appropriate oil/mix and spend some time learning to tune the engine. If you can see the heli vibrating - don't fly it, otherwise you will suffer more avionic failures and maybe even mechanical failures.

The 231 engine will be easier to load correctly. The 260 makes a lot more torque and is probably more critical to loading than a 231 will be as this extra torque has to be tamed to prevent excessive engine vibs.

Be aware that if you are flying a big lifter heli like the Condor without any payload, then the engine will not be loaded/tuned correctly. Just hanging some weight to the heli may make it smoother although having said that, the 260PUH is known as a shaker in standard form.

Hope this helps.

Paul.
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07-24-2006 12:29 PM  14 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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Be aware that if you are flying a big lifter heli like the Condor without any payload, then the engine will not be loaded/tuned correctly
At a funfly this weekend, Chris Bergen demonstrated exactly that to me on my Intrepid EB. You must have the proper combination of headspeed and disk loading to get it smoothed out. Tuning is also important for the high frequency vibes. And, no, there is probably not an engine out there that you could call 'pretuned'. Too many variables.

As for Century support, that is why I bought a Bergen. Too many bad stories about Century and they couldn't even bother to return my calls.
Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
Spartan RC Distributor
Outrage Helicopters
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07-24-2006 03:47 PM  14 years ago
Billme

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MS

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Century depends on Field Reps for questions or problems they can't answer in some cases...
Since you have only a few post(5 or 6) on RR, you just didn't screem enough for help, although I have tried to help you, and never heard anything else back from you til THIS post...
Good Lord, now we have Raja Bashing Century service...
I still answer Pm's, but have been to busy to check every post..Sorry


Eric, did you ever take your auto clutch down and clean it, then put ATF to replace the grease?

Bill
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07-24-2006 03:53 PM  14 years ago
rbort

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Franklin, MA - USA

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Oh no!
Bill:

I'm not bashing Century service, I'm just restating what I heard/read here on RR. Only Century owners are the ones to say if its good or bad, and the info I have came from them. If I am wrong, my info only comes from what I read here.

-=>Raja.
MA 1005 Hanson 27 3DMax, 4488 flts
Spectra-G Hanson 27 3DMax, 3485 flts
Whiplash V1-2 Hanson 300, 2090 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 989 flts
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07-24-2006 04:28 PM  14 years ago
mike lewis

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northeastern AZ

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VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVibration
Hey WIZ give me a call 1-928-537-1554
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07-24-2006 04:58 PM  14 years ago
Billme

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MS

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Raja,
I'm not going to play word games, you know what your doing...

Bill
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07-24-2006 05:11 PM  14 years ago
Disciple4123

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USA

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Billme, glad to hear from you

I have cleaned and ATF'd the auto hub at the main gear twice during the past 3 months, I have also attended to the clutch center torrington with a couple of ATF drops as well. I use an alternator and have that bearing reversed for constant rotation. I have gone from no alt, to flexible coupling, to belt drive with the same results. So we can conclude that it isn;t alternator related. The frame alignment is as accurate as one can sight with regard to clutch angles.

Just to refresh I have a Hanson reviewed engine w/new crankcase, bearings, piston&ring, jug. I had detected an out of round condition to the HD clutch, and corrected it with sandpaper. After that balance of the clutch and hub was perfect and true to 1 thou at the hub center, at the clutch center, and at the unsprung clutch halves. The heli still vibrates enough to turn off my digital camera on spoolup

EDIT: Just another question, my dealings with the auto hub included wiping the teeth clean with a solvent wet rag, and doing the same to the inner shaft and then applying ATF. Billme, is it appropriate to do a soak cleaning to get it clean? I understand that ATF has both lubricating and sticky properties, when you undo bolts in a car transmission, they start clickety as if loctited, and then smoothly come off. Below is a video made recently demostrating the vibes I experience, perhaps others can compare:
--CASE SENSITIVE--
www(dot)aerialphotographyservices.com/video/P3070474.MOV
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07-24-2006 05:45 PM  14 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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You must have the proper combination of headspeed and disk loading to get it smoothed out. Tuning is also important for the high frequency vibes. And, no, there is probably not an engine out there that you could call 'pretuned'. Too many variables.
Could someone please tell me the difference between a high frequency vibe and a low frequency vibes? These seem to be buzz words that don’t have any real meaning.

I know Chris is a nice guy but I also know that he is not personally tuning all the engines of every customer he has as the engine goes through its brake in process. And he cannot possibly tune an engine at the factory for every condition the machine will be exposed to.

I notice that with many AP applications a governor is still use instead of throttle and pitch curves. This makes tuning much more difficult especially with varying loads. A governor responds to variations in RPM only, not changes in atmospheric conditions or changes in load. In general if you want to stop the needle tweaking for varying load conditions get rid of the governor and use throttle and pitch curves. Decrease the pitch curve when the load increases and increase the pitch when the load decreases. If you use straight line pitch curves this is pretty damn simple, after all you have 3 flight modes to work with. The only possible need for a governor that I can see is for 3D flight. The better you understand throttle and pitch curves the more you will understand about tuning your engine (that’s half the battle).

Ace
Ace
What could be more fun?
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07-24-2006 05:46 PM  14 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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If you buy their machines don't expect super support and service from them. Someone correct me if I'm wrong as I don't deal with Century but have read it over and over again here.
Ah now come on there Raja, did Minair do anything for you with your vibrations on the Spectra G. I seem to remember you being quite surprised with the paint mixer you got from them.

If you throw one of these g260puh engines in a Bergen is Chris going to help you solve your troubles for free? It seems to me the issue is Zenoah. If someone else can take this engine and make it right why doesn’t Zenoah make it right from the get go? BTW has anyone ever tried to get service out of Zenoah? Good luck, they don’t even honor their written warrantee. No matter what happens to your engine you are at fault.

I can’t help getting on my soap box about the heli manufacturers forming an association so they have the power to dictate engine specifications to an engine manufacturer rather than just taking what you get and then dealing with the unknowns.

Don’t loose sight of where the problem really is. If we keep buying Zenoah’s junk they will keep making the junk for us.

Ace
Ace
What could be more fun?
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07-24-2006 07:09 PM  14 years ago
Billme

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MS

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Eric,
You must soak it, and then blow out with high air pressure to get to the outer wall of the clutch..
There was some clutches I found that liner was out of round, but was able to put it in a collet on a lathe and fix it... This may still be a problem with yours..


Bill
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07-24-2006 09:00 PM  14 years ago
Billme

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MS

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Eric,
Did you ever get the right blades for the ratio you wre running? Last time if I remember you were running 700's with a 9.0 ratio.. Now that will make a engine shake...
Bill
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07-24-2006 09:40 PM  14 years ago
Disciple4123

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USA

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Within days of your reccomendation to address that I kept the 700's and put an 88/13 ratio at about 1800 headspeed (no gov). It was 93:10 and 93:11 for about a week only, that was back in the spring

I checked the autohub today, it had grease present, evidently it shook from the crevices into place. I gasoline immersed it and cleaned it with a vibrating toothbush to get all the grease out. Then I used about 8 drops of ATF. It is re-assembled but not yet flown.

I do not understand yet how autohub issues can lead to a high freq. vibration? I understand that it could slip, or notch it's inner shaft and lock up though.

Update may come today after I fly it again with the fresh autohub.

Thanks,
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07-24-2006 10:20 PM  14 years ago
Billme

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MS

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The auto hub can chatter making the tail shake.. It can let go completely too... If the main clutch has problems, it can upset the auto hub... The auto hub can also upset the main clutch operation too. One can upset the other..
Use air pressure to blow out the auto hub...Fill the hub full with ATF, and then drain it...This way you make sure you got the outer wall lubricated correctly..
Bill
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07-24-2006 10:42 PM  14 years ago
Disciple4123

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USA

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Too late for dipping in ATF, but I did fly it again after the cleaning and ATF. It no longer shakes so bad that it turns off the camera, or makes the headspeed waver as before, it still shakes way to much for AP work. so in summary we have an improvement. I may do more flight attempts tommorow, if time permits.

The inner shaft was barely polished, still very smooth in appearance.

Thanks
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07-24-2006 11:51 PM  14 years ago
Billme

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MS

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Then go dip it and try again.. 6 drops want get it...
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07-25-2006 05:37 AM  14 years ago
victor55ca

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Vancouver BC

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I too am at the point we I am trying to figure out the vibration issue on my machine. I only have nitro experience so I am not sure what is too be expected.

Basically I have a 1/16" deflection either way on the vertical fin at the bottom and about the same on the horizontal fin at the ends. The fuel spashes around in the tank but its not foaming. I am running the 231 in a pred carbon gasser. Is this too much vibration? I have my needles at 1 3/8 running 50:1 premium 2 cycle oil for another gallon. I cooked one piston and cylinder from not knowing what I was doing and listening to the wrong person.

Vince
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