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07-22-2006 08:42 AM  14 years ago
Nick Jones

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also you have to consider that buy buying this cat, yes the intial cost is high but with raising gas prices you are actually saving money. Probably within the first year.
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07-22-2006 03:42 PM  14 years ago
Topher

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I dont think electric cars will ever catch on until we have >5 minute charging. What are you going to to when your trying on a road trip or something and you dont have 3.5 hours to charge the battery.
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07-22-2006 03:44 PM  14 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Fly helis, of course.op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t
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07-22-2006 06:18 PM  14 years ago
helo_chris

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also you have to consider that buy buying this cat, yes the initial cost is high but with raising gas prices you are actually saving money. Probably within the first year.
Not hardly, that was the point of my earlier statement. Do the math, calculate initial investment+ energy costs/mileage to compare the cost per mile of driving the car. Assuming that for a $100K investment you could drive the car and not charge from the grid using solar or some thing else. Essentially like Gimbal said, free energy. Using 15K miles a year which is the current average the first year the car would cost you $6.67 a mile. At 45K miles it goes down to $2.22.

Now lets compare that to a Honda S2000 which if you average the city/hwy EPA estimate of 20/26 you get an overall average of 23. At an initial investment of $34050 plus fuel costs for the first year of $1959, that averages $2.40 a mile for the first year. At 45K that drops to $.80 a mile. Those figures are assuming $3 a gallon for fuel. Even at $6 a gallon, first year fuel cost are $3912 which averages at $2.53 a mile at 15K, at 45K that drops to $.84 a mile.

All that is assuming it doesnt cost you anything to charge the car. Incidentally, 3 years is the average that people in the US keep a car.
"There is a fine line between cutting edge and bleeding edge.."
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07-22-2006 11:05 PM  14 years ago
Topher

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Chris, your numbers are a little off. First of all your not comparing two well matched cars. The S2000 has a much smaller power curve and wont keep up with the Tesla with out some serious modification. To have a gas powered car that can keep up with it, the cheapest car I can think of is a C6 corvette which has a 0-60 of about 4.2 seconds compared to the teslas 4. Not only that, but you didnt include any maintance costs either. Excluding tires the Tesla needs no maintnace what so ever for the first 100k, while the vette needs oil every 3k along with other stuff like belts, brakes, etc.

I went over some of the numbers very quikly based on a life of 100k
miles which is about what I put on a car in 3 or so years that I own it. This also includes the price for all maintnance excluding tires, but also including flat prices of just parts and no labor fees that would be spent on a mechanic, because if own a C6, no one is touching your machine but you.

...........Tesla.........Vette
Car........$80,000......$66,500
Energy.....$20,000......$15625
Maintnance......$0......$1286.666667


Oil........$666.66
Other......$620

Total DPG.....$1.........$1.20


Just remember these are very rought numbers that I just came up with and/or found in google. Its based on the MSRP of from GM and on a 19.2 average mpg rating. If you were to own the car long enough to put 100k on it I think the Tesla would pay would be a little bit cheaper but its hard to tell. I would pay the extra money just to have an electric car anyways.
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07-23-2006 12:57 AM  14 years ago
helo_chris

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I used 15000 because that is the average that people drive. Very few people put 30K+ miles a year on a car, and you certainly arent going to do it in a $100 sports car. And I am not buying that a car is going to go 100K miles before it needs ANY maintenance. Thats ludicrous, the thing still has moving parts that are going to wear out and break, I ignored maintenance costs because in the first 3 years most cars require little maintenance. But give me a break, this thing is gonna break, I dont care what powers it. If you calculate the Corvette at 15K a year it comes to $1.53 a mile after 3 years. Like I said before, the numbers I used were based on actual averages based on how people actually drive.

And I know several people who have and own Corvettes, and none of them service them themselves.
"There is a fine line between cutting edge and bleeding edge.."
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07-23-2006 02:41 AM  14 years ago
Topher

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Rochester, Michigan

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Good points, but what on the Tesla is going to break? The motor, no it only has an armature that makes no contact to anything else but bearings. The two speed tranny, doutful. With only two gears it probably doesn't even use a syncro. What else is there to break besides general car componants which I have never seen break under normal use. But your are right most people dont put that many miles on there cars. And the people that would be in market for a car like this usually will get a new one after 50k if not less avoiding most maintnance. But enginerds like myself would seriously make this my daily driver if I had the money.
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07-23-2006 06:14 PM  14 years ago
helo_chris

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goodlettsville, tn

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Ok, lets see.

Motor, ask the electric guys how often they replace electric motors. The ydo break.
Transmission, it is still a mechanical device with moving parts.
wheel bearings
tie rod ends
brakes
etc, etc....

My point being it doesnt matter what the drive system is, cars break. And these things are going to be low production basically one off vehicles, they will have issues once people start driving them. The major OEMs cant release a car without having issues, these guys certainly are no magicians.

Oh, you're and Engineer, that explain alot
"There is a fine line between cutting edge and bleeding edge.."
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07-23-2006 07:13 PM  14 years ago
Topher

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Oh, you're and Engineer, that explain alot
Not quit. Im basically an automotive test engineer(not really) but thats just to get me through college. And the main reason major OEMs produce vehicles with issues is not because of the engineering behind them, its the red tape. AKA bean counters who blindly replace things like stainless steel with cold roll just to save a few pennies.
Also, I am an electric guy. And I have only had to replace one motor in my 7 years of the hobby because I used it for the wrong application. As long as you dont abuse them, AC motors will last the life of the bearings. And with modern vehicles parts like tie rods and wheel bearings are designed to outlast the expected life of the car, electric or gas. True, there will be vehicles that have issues, but that goes with every single product made, not just cars. Defects happen, theres no way around that. But when you compare the two technologies, electric power systems will always be less maintnance then ICEs will.
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07-23-2006 11:58 PM  14 years ago
helo_chris

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goodlettsville, tn

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I know all about the bean counters , I dont work for one of the OEMs but I do work in automotive. Have also worked in automotive parts and service a few years back. And thats exactly my point, things will break, defective parts will be made. When you start adding up the cost of custom designed parts on a limited production vehicle it adds up quickly. Like I have said before I think EVs will never be anything more than novelties for those who can afford them. I am car guy to so I would love to have a car that would do 0-60 in 4 secs, but they will never be practical for everyday use."There is a fine line between cutting edge and bleeding edge.."
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