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07-19-2006 10:58 AM  14 years ago
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Spacey

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Pretoria, South Africa

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Calling the autos?
Hi Guys,

Just need some input on what the rest of the world is doing regarding the autorotations and the callers. We had a judges clinic the past weekend and even though I feel there is still alot of unresolved matters on the schedules and the scoring one thing that bugs me is the autorotation. There is no specification in the rules and schedules that stipulate exactly where the start of the auto should be announced by the caller or if it should be announced for that matter? Everyone here believes that the caller should announce the start of the manuver exactly as the model crosses the centre line and obviously the engine should be cut before the model crosses the middle. But now surely this puts some pressure on the caller to get the centre exactly right? And I also feel the caller is coaching the pilot if it's done this way?

I am one of the unlucky few that has to shuffle around every competition to get a hold of a buddy that will help me out the day by calling for me and I have always gone out of my way to make their job as easy as possible. In other words I don't let them guess where exactly is 10 meters before the start of every manuver so they can coach me some there too and make it clear to them to announce the start of every manuver just as I'm well into the box and travelling on my straight line..making it my problem to keep the heli going straight which I feel is the right way and works for me.

Will the auto be scored a zero if the caller announces the manuver early even though the pilot still ensures hes engine is dead by the time he reaches the centre line and the auto is done as defined by the schedules from there on?

Dunno there is nothing on black and white that clarifies this that I could find? Would really appreciate some input?

Thanks in advance
Rudolf
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07-19-2006 03:21 PM  14 years ago
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Call the Ball
I have called for some of the best flyers in the US and have quite a bit of experience doing this. The motor MUST be dead before the model crosses the midline EVEN IF THE MANEUVER HAS NOT BEEN CALLED or the maneuver is scored a zero. There is a line drawn on the ground that goes directly away from the pilot that is usable to help the caller find the midline and usually he calls the start of the maneuver just before the model crosses the midline so the pilot can begin the 180 degree turn at the midline and there is some reaction time involved so you start hime just a thumb length before center. I hold the call card up oln the midline and when the model hits my thumb I call the start.
Gordie
On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
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07-20-2006 08:21 AM  14 years ago
vfastr6

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Cape Town, RSA

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Hi Spacey - the way that I've always called it is to ensure that the pilot cuts the engine a way BEFORE the midline and then call the manouver just before the midline.

Never been scored zero due to calling.........

Cheers
Marc
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07-21-2006 01:47 PM  14 years ago
Spacey

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Pretoria, South Africa

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Thanks Gordie, Marc

So from what I read above can I say that calling the start of the auto about 10 meters more or less before the model crosses the middle line is a safe place to do it? The motor will be cut by then and it'll give the pilot a second or so to react and start the turn at the right time? I also feel that the judges should judge the start of the manuver (ie the motor dead before the middle line and the model starting the turn right as it crosses the middle line). Obviously the whole turn and then the landing. And anything leading up to the manuver shouldn't really be considered. I mean with this all said I can safely tell my caller to call "Now!" after I cut the motor. This way I can cut the motor about 10 meters before the midline..my caller has enough time to call the start and I have enough time to get ready to start the turn?

Regards
Rudolf
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07-24-2006 06:53 AM  14 years ago
AlexV

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Dubai, UAE

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You can cut the engine much earlier. As far as I understand Curtis cuts the engine for 50-70 m or more.Alexander
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08-04-2006 04:46 PM  14 years ago
w.pasman

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Netherlands

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If I understand it right the figure starts at the moment the caller calls NOW. As this figure must also start at the moment you cross the center line, the caller should call just at that very moment as well. Or you, the flyer, can also shout NOW I think (that's probably what I would go for if I were in your position)
I would think that if the caller shouts NOW too early, you are degraded by starting the figure not in the center
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08-23-2006 08:50 AM  14 years ago
ea434

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Norway

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I always instruct my caller to say NOW a couple of meters before the model crosses the centerline. That way I can react (and the judges also)and start the manouvre "dead on" centerline...

cheers
JR Sylphide EX, Super Gracy EX, JR 12X
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08-24-2006 12:37 PM  14 years ago
rotoboy

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Paris-France

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Hello,

The "now" MUST be on the centerline. Else, a good judge will downgrade because he will consider 2 faults :
- The maneuver do not start precisely on the center line.
- The is a straight line before the turn of the model (if you start your turn above the center line).
Note that some pilots to the last E.C. where downgraded for these reasons.

For me, as a caller, I say to my pilot : "attentionnnnn-NOW" so during the "attentionnnnn" the pilot is ready to turn and he is not surprise with the loud NOW...
As a pilot, I say NOW myself so of course... no surprise!
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08-24-2006 01:00 PM  14 years ago
Henrik Engert

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Cedar Park, TX

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I find it very difficult to understand that a judge would notice that the call comes a few meter before (it would be the middle judge in that case that could tell for sure). I myself sit as a F3C judge sometimes and find it very difficult, I concentrate on other parts of that manouver. If it's obvious, then of course there is a downgrade.

As a pilot I turn off the engine a few meters before the line, and let the caller call the manouver. The caller normally shifts position and hold out his arm to see when the helicopter passes the line.

But, I have never competed in a WC or any other international competition (and probably never will get there), so I am not sure how strict or how those judges can tell if helicopter is not in the auto when it passes the line.
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08-24-2006 03:56 PM  14 years ago
Spacey

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Pretoria, South Africa

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Keep the inputs coming guys?!? I value them all indeed. Guess we're still sitting on the fence with this one? Sure I know there is a safe route and that is to call it exactly on the middle but it has its obvious risks.
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08-24-2006 05:39 PM  14 years ago
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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I disagree
It would seem to me you can call the start anywhere you want as long as YOU BEGIN YOUR TURN AT THE MIDLINE. So if you have the motor dead, announce the start somewhere close to the midline and begin your turn on time, you have successfully completed ALL the elements of the maneuver and should be scored accordingly. Now If you call the start early and the model does ANYTHING other than fly the prescribed maneuver, you should be downgraded but you should not be downgraded for starting early.
I could be wrong.
Gordie
On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
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08-25-2006 07:42 AM  14 years ago
ea434

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Norway

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Well that depends Gordie. If the judges notice that you start the manouvre before or after the centerline they will downgrade. The further away from center they downgrade accordingly. My point is that if you have your caller calling out just before the centerline the judges would not downgrade, and you have the chance to start the auto "dead on"

Saw different approches in the E.C and those who called "dead on" were late into the auto wich should be downgraded. Obviously those who called too early or too late were downgraded. But calling late is more severe than calling early..

The sporting code description says the manouvre begins when the model crosses the line (NOT when the caller says NOW!)and the model then starts the 180 turn. It does not say anything about when to call. So the judges should make up their minds about where the centerline is and judge after where the pilot starts his manouvre. The calling in the auto is not the KEY factor in my mind (as long as it is not called too late..)
JR Sylphide EX, Super Gracy EX, JR 12X
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08-25-2006 07:49 AM  14 years ago
Henrik Engert

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Cedar Park, TX

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I totally agree.
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08-25-2006 08:06 AM  14 years ago
Spacey

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Pretoria, South Africa

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Hi Gordie,

I agree with you on this one but did not want to say so because folks might think I have already made up my mind on this one and really just looking for confirmation with this thread. That is not my intention. I am trying to find out if there is one concrete way of doing the call and from the thread there is already signs of uncertainty.


See guys the way I see it any of the manuvers can be called at any time, all I always make sure of is that the heli is at least inside the manuver box before the "now" is called. All the rules ever say is that the call should be done at least 10 meters before the start of the manuver and as we all know the heli should not do anything but travel in a straight line horizontally during this 10 meters or more if possible. And on the calling of the auto nothing is mentioned? Why? The way I interpret the rules is that they did not require a 10 meter straight and level after the call and it is entirely up to the pilot what happens here. If he wants to decend (sp?) with the motor on to get a glide path before he hits the switch why not? If he wants to do some final positioning why not? If he wants to make sure hes motor is cut why not? Point is though there is still nothing that says a pilot should be downgraded if he calls the start of the manuver 50 meters before the middle line.

Even if the motor is not cut! All the rules say is that the motor must be dead before the model crosses the middle line and that the start of the model's 180 degree turn should commence right on the middle to form a perfectly round turn when viewed from above back to the centre of the helipad. That is all I read into the rules here with the fact that they don't require the model to travel straight and level for 10 meters after the call. This does not IMHO mean that that manuver should be called exactly on the middle line? I agree that a pilot should probably be frowned upon if he does a piroflip after the now if called but ok we know that is silly. As long as the model's motor is still dead right by the time the model crosses the centre line and the 180 auto is completed from there I can't see any reason for a point deduction?

Regards
Rudolf
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08-25-2006 08:12 AM  14 years ago
Spacey

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Pretoria, South Africa

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The sporting code description says the manouvre begins when the model crosses the line (NOT when the caller says NOW!)and the model then starts the 180 turn. It does not say anything about when to call. So the judges should make up their minds about where the centerline is and judge after where the pilot starts his manouvre. The calling in the auto is not the KEY factor in my mind (as long as it is not called too late..)
Agreed.
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08-25-2006 08:32 AM  14 years ago
ea434

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Norway

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Agree Spacey! All the other flight manouvres must be called at least 10 meters before. The model then flies at least 10 m straight and level before the pilot begins the manouvre.

In fact the 10 meters before and after each manouvre is part of the manovre and is subject of judging.

And it is still a mystery to me how Rudiger Feil (former European Champion) dived into the manouvres after calling at this years E.C. The rolls were not centered and in two rounds he hadn`t finished his 1st. roll while passing the centerline. Part of this has to be the callers mistake, because he called very late but part was the pilot himself for not making the turn far out and give him and the caller some time to enter the manovres according to the book!
All these mistakes and he still got 8 from the judges. He even streched his autos and got 8.

We were pleased to see that Patrick Kessler performed this much better and deserved to be the new European Champion. Congrats!
JR Sylphide EX, Super Gracy EX, JR 12X
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08-25-2006 12:12 PM  14 years ago
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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AHA!
Remember, the reason we call the start and end of the maneuvers is to tell the judges when we are all aligned and are ready for them to begin judging. If we call "Now!" and then make a correction to align for a maneuver, we should be downgraded even though we did all the elements of the announced maneuver. If we fly straight and level for 20 meters before a maneuver (after calling the start) and the model does nothing else, should there be a downgrade JUST because we started early? I do not know of ANY judges that would do that but I always tell a caller that I am not totally familiar with, to call the maneuver early, as soon as I have the model straight and level, and I will start at the appropriate time. (yes, sometimes I really do a really bad maneuver but it's not the caller's fault <g>.)
I like having my normal caller as he is familiar with my timing and I can relax and get everything aligned and not have to fly long entrances and exits while being judged. I can make small corrections right before the maneuver begins with no downgrades as I am not being judged at that time. I was fortunate to have Cliff Hiatt (former WC) call a couple of rounds for me at the US Nationals this year and he made it VERY easy on me as he called exactly when the maneuver should begin and waited for me to get finished them called the end. There is just no substitute for experience and expertise. He could read the speed of my model and anticipated where I needed to begin the maneuver to center everything. It was excellent.
Gordie
On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
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08-27-2006 08:39 AM  14 years ago
rotoboy

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Paris-France

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Hello,

I'm sorry Guys, I do not agree with you... And for me, the rules are quite clear.
For all aerobatics maneuvers, according to the rules : "Model aircraft flies straight and level for 10m minimum and then..."
For Autorotations : "Manoeuvre begins when model aircraft crosses an imaginary plane that extends vertically upward from a line drawn from the centre judge..."

It's very important to understand that a judge must judge ALL WHAT HE SEES between the "Now" and "Complete" of the caller.
For example, in aerobatics, if the caller says "Now" too early, you will have to fly a long straight part. If you do not fly a perfectly straight part, you will be downgraded, not only during the 10 meters before the maneuver but as soon as the caller says "Now".

About the autos, if the caller says "Now" before the center line, the judge must judge what the heli does before the center line. This is not a part of the maneuver description, so : Downgrade.
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08-28-2006 07:14 AM  14 years ago
ea434

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Norway

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Well I agree Rotoboy!

Congrats on the Team win at E.C!

Cheers
JR Sylphide EX, Super Gracy EX, JR 12X
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08-28-2006 12:22 PM  14 years ago
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Agreed
Laurent,
I totally agree that EVERYTHING between the time the maneuver is announced and called complete should be judged however I do not think you should be downgraded JUST because you called a maneuver early unless you did something that needed a downgrade.
If you fly 20 meters after calling "now" but the model flies perfectly straight and level before starting the roll (or whatever) then there should be no downgrade.
Am I wrong here?
By the way, congratulations to the French Team at the recent ECs. Well done.
Gordie
On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
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