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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › eCCPM, mCCPM,CCPM, non CCPM SWM HPM M&M S&M
07-19-2006 10:11 PM  14 years ago
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Evolution is upon us

The radio manufactures are the worst writers in history and that is fact.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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07-19-2006 10:15 PM  14 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Get your sh1t published
It ain't my chit and I don't care whether anyone publishes it or not. It's not my argument. The terms are here to stay until the next step in the evolution of swash terminology, and YOU my friend need to take some of your own advice and KILL NOTHING LESS THAN A FIFTH, and soon.

You've wasted hours of typing time arguing about ACRONYMS, man! You coulda been flying but instead you were typing. D'oh!
.

.
Thou shalt immediately kill........ nothing less than a fifth
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07-19-2006 10:22 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Murrieta, CA

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I wish
Man, I tell you if our society wasn't so concerned about "feelings" of others I would in a second!!! You gotta take a look at where my location is and you will understand. I NEED BEER!!!! THIS AIN'T NATURAL!!!!!!


Oh, By the way. This speaks volumes.

elite veteran Registered Oct 05.
2292 (8.28 posts per day)

Nice talking to you......


In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-19-2006 10:25 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Like I've said plenty before - It's not really for the radio industry to start using these extended acronym terms - CCPM is all the electronic versions require as far as radios are concerned because that is what the mix is called whether it's electronic or mechanical - They don't use extended acronyms or different names for other electronic mixes than for the mechanical version - It's for us end users/hobbyists to use the extended acronyms or other means of referring to each of the versions specifically.

This thread is about explaining the acronyms and why we use them. The myth that the term CCPM is an invented radio term is part of this clarification. Notice there is no trademark or such associated with the term CCPM.

(Post count doesn't mean squat about intelligence or wisdom - There's plenty of folks with high post counts that don't know everything - Though they may think they do)
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07-19-2006 10:27 PM  14 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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I see where you're at and you have my sympathy and support. PM me an address and I'll shoot you a fifth of one or a case of the other if it'll help you ease up on the acronymic acrimony.

In the meantime I hoist a 32oz Throttle Cuervo in your direction. Semper Fi.
op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t
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07-19-2006 10:38 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Murrieta, CA

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CCPM is all the electronic versions require as far as radios are concerned because that is what the mix is called whether it's electronic or mechanical - They don't use extended acronyms or different names for electronic mixes than for the mechanical version - It's for us end users/hobbyists to use the extended acronyms or other means of referring to each of the versions specifically.
I appreciate the gesture however we get in some DEEP sh1t if we get cought. 3 months left. I'll make it.

Now as far as the above quote..... I would like you to please go to the rotory forum and take a look at what Mas has to say about this whole evolution of terms. As he was and is still a part of it and knows where it has stemmed from in the early days. I honestly could care less... When you ask me a question about CCPM I will ask what heli you are talking about. If I am not familiar with the model I will do some research and answer your question. And if you tell me it's a raptor..... You don't need to worry about CCPM in any other words other than the fact that your model isn't it and CCPM means that you use more than one servo for collective control. It's that easy. If you want to get all technical feel free. However you guys are confusing more than you are helping.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-19-2006 10:42 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Invite Mas to come join this discussion if you think he has something to contribute.

Why do all that research when a simple little acronym would have told you what you needed to know right off the bat?

We disagree about who is being confused - Maybe it confuses you - Maybe it clarifies for several others - Simply look around at the usage to determine which most of us are comfortable with. The terms that make the most sense to the most people will become the most common - Generally the most current terms are the most rational.
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07-19-2006 10:56 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Because just adding the e or m doesn't make it "technicaly correct" either. If that is what you are going for.

As far as I'm concerned. When I am at home I tend to frequent this forum for advice about problems I am having or to help others with problems. Just so happens I am in a position to haggle on this one. No way would I even touch this if I could just go fly. It's like what is better PCM or PPM? They both have advantages and can be argued all day. However on this one we shed a ton of light on how inaccurate our terms are and in order to correct them we need to go about it another way.

We learned that anything that moves the swash to accomplish a collective input is technicaly "CCPM". There fore throwing an e or m in front will not clarify anything more than where CCPM being used to reference the electronic mixing of servo's. So why add the acronym?

Raptor controls were called mechanical before, what was so wrong that we need another two acronyms to describe it? I'm just wondering why. You would think you guys were Colonels in the military that are looking to get promoted. Catch phrase is all eCCPM or mCCPM is. Doesnt' explain anything more than what has been out there for years. I would love to invite Mas in here. I think he is banned to be honest. I will look and see if he is still in here.

Go to rotory and look at the Mas Technique forum and look at the CCPM thing. PLEASE. It will shed some light.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-19-2006 11:11 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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How many times do I have to explain it to you?

CCPM is not an exclusive term for the electronic version and it is proper terminology to refer to the mechanical version as CCPM as well - The e and m specify the two versions/methods.

You have to use either the electronic or the mechanical version of the CCPM mix to properly articulate the swash - The e and m specify the versions/methods one is referring to.


Please quit playing that game already. If you don't beleive CCPM refers to anything but the electronic method and therefore can't understand why the e and m then so be it - I'm done explaining to you why those of us who do understand use the Es & Ms. If you can't understand by now you never will and I won't explain it for you in this thread again.

If you get confused again go back and read this post again http://www.runryder.com/p2113381/
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07-19-2006 11:15 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Been in use long before you or I...... Read this.....
For the benifit of our new users - here's a Mas Technique CCPM article that was in the March April 2001 Issue.

As one observes today?s helicopters, each model is somewhat unique when compared to others. One manufacturer might offer carbon frames, yet another offer aluminum. One machine might have an inline flybar, yet another has an underslung flybar. While manufacturers offer an array of hundreds of different features, all current models share a standard set of only three types of control systems.
1) Direct Type - this system has a fixed swashplate and uses a rod or wire connected to
a servo to control collective. This is a single servo collective system.
2) Elevator Control - This system is the most common. Collective control is achieved by linkages
that slide the entire swashplate up and down on the main shaft to achieve collective control.
This is a single servo collective system.
3) CCPM - This system uses two, three or four servos mounted close to the swashplate which
operate simultaneously to move the swashplate up and down to achieve collective and steering
control. CCPM systems offer less complex mechanical linkage.
There are five basic swashplate setups for model helicopters which are supported by mid to high-end radio control systems. They include a ?Single Servo? system, and four different types of ?CCPM.? A Single Servo system uses one servo for each axis of the swashplate, such as; aileron, elevator, and collective. Single servo type systems may be found in the more popular "Elevator Type" helicopters which slide the swashplate up and down to achieve collective control. A single servo system is also used for the "Direct Type" collective system, where one servo moves the collective thru the use of a pitch change wire or rod. The ?Direct Type? is the only system that uses a preferable fixed swashplate.
CCPM type helicopters utilize a combination of servos working together to achieve the 3 axes of control; aileron, elevator, and collective. There are a total of four CCPM types, however the ?three servo type? is the most popular. The CCPM system offers far less mechanical complexity to move the swashplate of the helicopter. In addition, multiply servos working together increases the power of the system.
In one of my earlier Mas Technique articles, titled; ?Helicopter Control Systems,? (Jan/Feb ?94) we examined helicopter control systems in detail. In a relatively short period of time, many helicopter manufacturers have re-tooled their equipment from the traditional ?Elevator Type? sliding swashplate, and ?Direct Type,? to the now popular - CCPM system.
CCPM which stands for; ?Cyclic Collective Pitch Mixing? has recently been promoted to be the greatest thing to happen to model helicopters in a long time. It promises a new control system that will allow you to achieve new levels of expertise in your flying, as well as offer amazing collective and cyclic control. Well . . . this is really not the case. Along with all the glamour and advantages of CCPM mixing, are a few downfalls as well. In this segment of the Mas Technique, we?ll take a close look at CCPM.
One has to ask - why has CCPM almost become standard equipment on model helicopters, and why did most manufacturers switch to it? For the most part, model helicopter mechanical design reached a plateau some 5 - 8 years ago. This was right after we went to, carbon this, and carbon that. There had to be something new with a bit of mystery to attract first time customers and entice the old ones. So along came CCPM.
CCPM evolved a bit differently than past heli evolution?s. Most all changes in helicopter design came from the users and competition - factory pilots who are always striving to improve their helicopter, thus improving their standings and performance. However, there were few competition pilots using CCPM. As a matter of fact, most competition and factory reps. dislike CCPM because of its bad habits. So the moral of this story is; CCPM was mostly introduced by the manufacturers themselves.
Not long ago - a major helicopter manufacturer offered a new model with CCPM as an incentive to market a machine that was unique when compared to other helis. Not surprisingly, the modeling public took interest in the proposed new system and purchased them. In a short period of time other manufactures, not wanting to be left out in the cold, offered the CCPM system as well. Within the last six months a few ?diehard? manufacturers, who offer competition helis, reluctantly offered a CCPM machine, even though they vowed to never use CCPM on their equipment.
While CCPM has been promoted as a new and futuristic control system, in reality, it has been around almost as long as helicopters themselves. As modern helicopter radio systems evolved in the early 1980?s, so did CCPM. For the most part, CCPM mixing was developed and used extensively in German manufactured helicopters. My friend, Mr. Ewald Heim was instrumental in the early design and promotion of CCPM. As a matter of fact, CCPM has been standard equipment in past and present European helicopters such as Graupner, Heim, and Vario.
The truth of the matter is, CCPM is a manufacturers dream - gone are the complicated mixing trays, push-pull linkages, numerous bell cranks, ball joints, pushrods, links, etc. It?s a known fact that CCPM reduces 50% of the linkages on a model. Easy calculation, less parts = less cost! However, I have not witnessed this being passed to the customer.
Let?s take a look at some of the advantages of CCPM.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-19-2006 11:17 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Whatever the heck that was I'm no where near bored enough to read it - Forget it. Nothing takes that many words to explain. And I seriously doubt posting that entire article here was neccessary for any point you had to make.

I'm going to go fly now - Try not to crash this website by flooding it while I'm gone alright.
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07-19-2006 11:35 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Murrieta, CA

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Yup,
Just as I thought. Don't want to do any research but you want to run your jibs about it.

Yes sa, massa sa!! Elite veteran........ Wisdom and knowledge.....Please share..... But gain it first. You wanted it, I provided it. Enjoy your flying.

Sounds to me like you are a little but hurt.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-19-2006 11:51 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Dude - It's five miles long in a single post in a heli discussion forum - Not a book club which I'm sure would not be happy with you posting the entire thing in a forum - You can edit it down to to whatever your point is in there somewhere and to a reasonable size - But no way am I going to read all of there here.

Where did you copy that from? Are you sure you even have the rights to post that here? If it were publically available on the web then wouldn't posting a link to it have been a better choice than copy/pasting the whole thing into a forum post?
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07-19-2006 11:55 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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It all pertains
Start at the top and stop when you get beyond where you think it pertains. It explains the evolution and where the term CCPM started in this hobby and what it is used to describe. You just may learn something. But we can't have that now can we. Just go ahead and stick to what ever you want to call it. That's all that matters anyways.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-19-2006 11:59 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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I'm sorry - Skimming through it I see more that has nothing to do with CCPM than does have to do with it. Too much garbage for me to sift through for this single topic.
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07-20-2006 12:00 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Edited
There you go. Now take a read, still long but it all pertains to this discussion.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-20-2006 12:48 AM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Yep - The article (author) seems to agree with your point of view. But it really doesn't have anything to do with the current issue and changing usage at all. Even if it were a term invented for the electronic mix (Which I'm definitely not saying it was), It has nothing to do with how we choose to use the term today.

And the article is not exactly convincing in the way he explains the different methods of swash articulation.
2) Elevator Control - This system is the most common. Collective control is achieved by linkages
that slide the entire swashplate up and down on the main shaft to achieve collective control.
which his "CCPM" does the exact same thing.
This is a single servo collective system
seems merely a note-note in the explanation too.

In fact his explanations seem mostly vague and simplified into layman and intended for the mostly novice.

Us who work on both these types of systems all the time can see with our own eyes that both his "Elevator Control" (??What kind of ridiculous name is that?? I'm positive that is not the proper technical term - CCPM is) and his "CCPM" are the same pre-swash mix done differently.

It is us in the here and now setting things strait in terminology. History may be interesting, but the historical myths have little to do with our discussion today.
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07-20-2006 01:06 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Current issue.... Well since there is no current issue with terminology other than with you "elite veterans".
But it really doesn't have anything to do with the current issue and changing usage at all
Even if it were a term invented for the electronic mix (Which I'm definitely not saying it was), It has nothing to do with how we choose to use the term today.
Well Mr. Chaos... I tend to listen to guys such as Mike Mas who have been in this hobby for over 30 years and have experience well beyond you or I will ever have. Whether flying or technical jargon. Who is we? The manufacturers don't use it, heli nor the radio manufacturers. The engineers don't use it either. Feel free to throw it around at your leisure but every time I look at a new guys thread and he asks a question and you get all complex on him with the eCCPM and mCCPM crap you can expect me or someone to jump in before you get him confused. You should really look at people like DKSHEMA and others.. There are alot of guys on here with a wealth of knowledge and this crap corrupts it. All you do is make it more confusing for young guys. All you want is a term to explain the "highly complex" craptor controls. You can't even find another heli with a mechanical mix that isn't a direct copy of that stupid (yet dependable) collective set up. I bet you have a basement full of newly designed wheels don't you? And they are probably all still round...... Just like the original that wasn't broken.


In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-20-2006 01:17 AM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Yep - You keep saying you listen to whatever names you feel like dropping at the moment - But maybe you should also try to figure things out for yourself and quit regurgitating other people's beliefs and/or errors and find your own - This is what enough actual independant thinking folks have done to get us where we are now and discussing the matter here.

We're not trying to impose these terms on the industry - Just making corrections and being specific for ourselves. The simple term CCPM is correct for the industry - It needs no changing - But the other terms are not correct for us - Those need changing. - "Elevator Control??" "Standard Mix" "Mechanical Mix" - These are all bogus terms that are substituions for CCPM .
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07-20-2006 01:25 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Ahhhh great wise one. I have a question for you since you are an independant thinker and all... Maybe you can help me. With your vast experience. Can you tell me why the +5.5 delta that I have on the tempest FAI in my gallery works really good for 3D on that machine? Well it's help from people like Mark Fadley (M/A and JR rep) that helped me with that one. Or Maybe why the Synergy has plastic bearing blocks and G10 frames versus metal and carbon fiber? I know exactly why. I heard it from Todd Bennet and Jason Krause's mouth. They would know, they are the ones that designed it and tested it. Kinda like Mas was there for this whole "evolution". Independent thinker my a$$. You jumped on the first pharase you saw in Model helicopter world and ate it hook line and sinker.


Peace. I'm out to the gym.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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