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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › eCCPM, mCCPM,CCPM, non CCPM SWM HPM M&M S&M
07-18-2006 01:35 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Murrieta, CA

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Easy
CCPM and non CCPM like the Rays book says, the radio manual says (all three of them) and just about every other person I have ever encountered at a flying field since I started this hobby 4 years ago. I still don't understand when and with whom you discuss the raptor flight control system. Just so happens I have the Horizon book in front of me..... lets see here.


Airskipper 50 says you can set it up with "either CCPM or mechanical swash mixing, whichever you are most comfortable with" pg 23

Trex 450SA says "direct to swash CCPM linkages" pg 30

Blade CP pro says "CCPM and Bell-Hiller mixing for lightning fast cyclic response" OHHHH check this one out!!!
"6-channel FM radio system with CCPM, idle up flight mode switch and adjustment knob, and optional-use proportional 5th channel" Pg 33.


Dude..... What's your shipping address? I'm going to send you a whell chair cause you aint got a leg to stand on now. That was the Hiroshima of the war right there. I'll be right over on the Missouri. Get a fresh pen ready man!!!
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-18-2006 01:40 AM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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So you are against using proper terminology because improper terminology is already rooted though inaccurate? We have no business trying to set it strait and use proper terminology finally?

Yes, "non-CCPM" is inaccurate because there is indeed an intermediate mechanical "CCPM" required to substitute for an electronic "CCPM". Likewise electronic "CCPM" is a subsitution for mechanical "CCPM".
Just the same as electronic v-tail is a substitute for mechanical v-tail and vice-versa - etc.
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07-18-2006 02:02 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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I'm saying when everyone knows what you are talking about......Leave it alone
Like I said before..... The adding of e or m to the front doesn't make it entirely correct either so untill someone comes up with the truly accurate term I'm going to argue untill you just give up.

CCPM is used on ALL HELIS THAT MOVE THE SWAHPLATE TO INDUCE COLLECTIVE INPUT. FACT

The mixing that goes on above the swashplate is where the "CCPM" takes place. FACT

The mechanical mix you refer to does not indeed "mix" the two. FACT

So your eCCPM definition does not accurately define what is going on. and neither does your mCCPM definition.

Nope I'm not against using proper terminology. I'm all for it but your terms don't do anything but cause confusion hence I discard them as slang for people who just cant leave it alone. It's not broken so don't try to fix it.

It's like coming in here and starting to say that these are not heli's they are helicopters by defintion and all of you should use the "proper" terminology to describe them when discussing anything to do with them so I don't get confused about what "exactly" it is you are talking about.

Can I be real Son? Be real. Can I be REAL REAL?!?! Be Real Real SON!


Who in the He11 are you talking too that doesn't understand when you try to describe a raptor flight control system?
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-18-2006 02:15 AM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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You can type the word "FACT" in caps all you want - It won't make it correct.

Lately all you've done is regurgitate inaccurate information from the marketing industry and argue that the terminology isn't broken yet here we are in a 15 page discussion because enough people feel that it is broken and want to fix it.
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07-18-2006 02:38 AM  14 years ago
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Hey I was wrong about what I said about radio manuals.

I like eCCPM and mCCPM better than CCPM and Standard because it's less confusing.

I can live with the different acronyms but I prefer eCCPM and mCCPM

shawgl do you subscribe to Model Helicopter World (MHW)? April 2006 issue.... did you read it?

Page 50...

"Comparing eCCPM and mechanical mixing using the Sceadu Evo 50 as a test bed"

Here is the first paragraph...

"We have heard the theory that electronic cyclic-collective pitch mixing (eCCPM) control system gives faster responses and is better for doing collective pumping type 3D flying. We wanted to investigate this by using one type of helicopter and build it in eCCPM format and also in mechanical mix format (mCCPM)."

Herin the problem lies. The learned world actually uses eCCPM and mCCPM terminology. Simple and consistant terminology. They are both CCPM. By not calling them both CCPM you are really confusing the facts.

The old terminology needs clarification.

Take it in... try it out... it's like learning to fly...
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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07-18-2006 02:43 AM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Another fine post by hootowl.
You have a way of saying much with few words.
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07-18-2006 02:43 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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So we have an agreement? e and m CCPM doesn't fully and entirely define what is going on either from the intial movement of the servo to the completion of the blade moving.

So for the time being..... CCPM will continue to be used to define the controls we use in reference to whether one or more servo's is used to move the swashplate. Glad we could clear that up. I sure am glad JR, Futabe, Min Air, Synergy, Align, E-flite and all the other companies didn't jump on the band wagon that you are piloting and change the manuals before I could end this. Marketing terms asside of course.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-18-2006 02:52 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Rotory modeler
Ever read it? You should read the editorial by Mike Mas almost every month about it. Pretty amusing about this.

Hoot, you live in PA man. Put down the European mags brother. American all the way!! Hey man... PM Mas about it on here. Or go to the Rotory forum. Take your flame sheild man. Don't say I didn't warn you.

I read that mag some times though too. It pisses me off the e and m crap because it makes no difference in all reality. It is an inaccurate term as Matt showed us all that. But it works to describe what we need it to. I am yet to hear anyone have an inteligent discussion about why his mCCPM controls are not working properly where you will find tons of posts on the control systems that this industry has dubbed CCPM. And the funny thing is people just can't accept the fact that it doesn't matter what you call it, you know what is meant by it. Like Craptor Collective Control System. You know I am not talking CCPM (you knew what I meant didn't you?) It's ok man.... You can tell me. You had that nice image of a fury control system pop in your head. You didn't just draw a blank and get all confused did you?????
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-18-2006 03:11 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-18-2006 03:50 AM  14 years ago
hootowl

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Take this..

I agree with you.

It really doesn't matter. I started this thread to satisfy my questions and it has. I get Mike Maas's (Rotary) also. I don't take everything I read as gospil in any form. I flew with a guy last week who knows Mike personally. I guess a lot of people in this hobby know him... he is a pioneer from what I hear
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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07-18-2006 03:54 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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So it's settled then. We don't have an acronym that accurately describes our heli control system but we do all understand what we are talking about when the CCPM thing is spoken. That is all that matters anyway. WE all understand what is being said. Glad we finally got that cleared up..

Thanks Matt for the input on it all.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-18-2006 03:59 AM  14 years ago
James Yeram

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Oceanside, CA

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I got one for you guys
what kind of system would this be??

remember for you non full scalers that is a tranny underneath it.
and its off of a CH-53
this thread will never die
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07-18-2006 04:21 AM  14 years ago
hootowl

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This IS mechanical mixing..... CH-47

First stage..

Second Stage

I actually built these units in 1/25 scale when I worked at United Scale Models back in the eighties.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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07-19-2006 09:12 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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I just want to try to clarify something about above and below swash mixes and the specific mixing we're referring to in this discussion

Sure all CPs mix the controls above the swash to the actual control surfaces/blades - This is one reason that all CPs are CCPM - But when both cyclic and collective utilize the swash then another mix below the swash is required. And this is the particular mix that all these acronyms refer to.

If you were to connect the cyclic and collective controls directly to the swash without either an electronic or mechanical mix, you would only be able to either tilt the swash, or run it up and down, or neither - But you couldn't do both as one would hold against the other preventing the movement of one or both controls.

If you are not using an electronic mix to allow both controls to articulate the swash simultaneously - Then you will need a mechanical mix to allow mutual use of the swash by both cyclic and collective controls - And vice-versa.

So it is the below swash mixing we are referring to - There are two primary methods - Electronic or Mechanical - They do the exact same thing just differently - Allow mutual simultaneous articulation of the swash by both cyclic and collective controls - Cyclic/Collective Pitch Mixing (CCPM) - mechanical Cyclic/Collective Pitch Mixing (mCCPM) and electronic Cyclic/Collective Pitch Mixing (eCCPM).

eCCPM/mCCPM - Specific, accurate, and far simpler terms for everyone to use and understand. - One is mechanical and performed on the heli itself (after servos) - The other is electronic and performed by a radio or other electronic gadget (before servos).
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07-19-2006 09:33 PM  14 years ago
JeffM1999

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Erie, CO

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holy crap this thread is annoying.
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07-19-2006 09:43 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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You could unsubscibe at any time and save the actual interested participants of the discussion your own annoying non-contributive remarks. (In otherwords you've just annoyed the rest of us with an e-mail and completely worthless post)
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07-19-2006 09:47 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Murrieta, CA

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Chumming.........
Capt..... Man, you circled the boat around again huh.....

Well I aint' biting today.


Your justification is a little clouded.....
eCCPM/mCCPM - Specific, accurate, and far simpler terms for everyone to use and understand. - One is mechanical and performed on the heli itself (after servos) - The other is electronic and performed by a radio or other electronic gadget (before servos).
It has been very clear for everyone.

CCPM= more than one servo moves the swash for coll. input.
Mechanical/standard mix or what ever you call it (anything but CCPM) uses a single servo to move the swash.

Simple terms. Sure..... It may not be "technically accurate" however it works. Just as adding an e or m doesn't make it "technically accurate". Above/below the swash?? Sounds like another letter needs added. Untill then.... Heim, the dude that invented the mix in the radio that named it CCPM will still reign supreme as that is what he named it. No need to come up with another name as I am still to hear a question asked about what type of "technical term" can you use to describe the raptor collective controls.


Just so happens maybe the dude that came up with the name "CCPM" was reffering to the mix of the radio.... Hmmmmm maybe.... There is absolutely no need for this e and m crap. Who is confused????? Anyone????


In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-19-2006 09:54 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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The "dude" who "named" the "radio mix" did not in fact "name" it - That is simply what the mix is and was before he created the electronic version - The "electronic" version is what incorperates more than a single servo into the mix.

As I've said plenty before - There are many of these types of mixes out there that you could try to dispute - Mechanical v-tail mixing only uses a single servo to output each control and the electronic version uses two servos to output each control. It's the same mix performed differently - Same with CCPM.

Time to get the facts strait already. CCPM is not an invented radio term. It's a term for the particular mix whether it's performed electronically or mechanically makes no difference - It's the same mix.

The "dude" may have coined the term while creating the electronic version - Or not - But it's a term for the mix in general and not the electronic version exclusively.
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07-19-2006 09:57 PM  14 years ago
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Who is confused????? Anyone????
I'm not the least bit confused.

It's as clear to me as the deep blue sea that language and terminology evolve, and they do so despite ANYONE'S efforts to stop it.

The term CCPM was coined long ago by a Futaba radio engineer. The term has evolved -- doesn't matter how or why but it has, and common usage now assures that the terms eCCPM and mCCPM are here to stay, at least until the next evolution of swash terminology.

And no one's insistance that they shouldn't evolve makes any difference whatsoever, despite their many pages of posts claiming otherwise.

Language evolves. It's a fact of life.
op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t
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07-19-2006 10:11 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Murrieta, CA

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So..... Where exactly did they come from??? Who started it??? I can name one man that was around that can and will tell you where it came from and explain the whole evolution of the term. Feel free to PM him or just cruise on over to the rotory forum and ask him. Mike Mas is his name. I'm sure he would know. Or you can take a look in almost any of the Rotory mags from the last year and there is bound to be an article about it. Feel free to do some research on where it originated.

So the evolution of terms is upon us huh????? You two must be the keyboard jockeys Mas was talking about in his article back in his April issue of Rotory.

Since these terms are in such wide use today......Why aren't they used by JR, Miniature Aircraft, Avant, Thunder Tiger, Align, Futaba or any of the other major manufacturers? Get your sh1t published and then come to explain the change. Untill then........ I'll be busy ......


In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › eCCPM, mCCPM,CCPM, non CCPM SWM HPM M&M S&M
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