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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › eCCPM, mCCPM,CCPM, non CCPM SWM HPM M&M S&M
07-17-2006 10:22 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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it was just a terminolgy to distinguish between those helicopters where the swashplate moved up and down the mainshaft and those where it didn't - it was simple at the time and made sense and the e and m were added later when the computer radios arrived.

The term CCPM just referred to the fact that the swashplate was moved to accomplish both collective and cyclic pitch changes, that was it.
That is the best explanation out there of where the term came to be.

Well somewhere along the line it turned into the widely used terminology used to describe the function of the mixing of servos at the swashplate for control purposes. That is how it's used in general discussion and context throughout the hobby and has been for years. No need to come back with e and m because they are all CCPM now with few exceptions and the context of the CCPM acronym is used solely for the purpose of identifying the required equipment. Can we all agree on that?

Keep it simple, if you want to get into a techincal term war about control systems you should leave acronyms that are widely used and understood alone to aleviate confusion.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-17-2006 10:27 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Bottom line
It still all boils down to when I say:

Dude, you need to get a radio that will support 140 degree CCPM. You know exactly what I am talking about.

And when you say:


Dude my heli is mCCPM. I know you have a craptor.

That's funny! I don't care who you are, that's funny!!!
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07-17-2006 10:37 PM  14 years ago
Matt-Drummer

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I feel that most people who use the terminology that I do realise that only one servo disc/arm moves in a `non-CCPM' helicopter and they never argue otherwise.

What does happen in a helicopter that uses the swashplate to effect collective pitch changes is that the cyclic servos or the linkages attached to them have to be moved to accommodate the rising and falling swashplate and this is what they consider the mix to be.

I'm not sure that I feel that's a mix in the same way as it is in the radio but I do feel that the collective and cyclic commands are all mixed together at swashplate and its only in a sytem where the swashplate does not control collective pitch that the cyclic servos and collective servo are truly independent with no chance of any interaction between collective and cyclic pitch.

Most systems that move the swashplate to effect collective pitch changes have some interaction between collective and cyclic pitch, very small, even possibly negligible on most modern machines but there all the same. The review of the Hirobo Eagle 3 on http://www.jason.net explains the interaction quite well and the Eagle 3's solution to the problem.
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07-17-2006 10:43 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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A mix is a mix and it's called what it does however it does it. CCPM was the term used for the electronic version of the mix because that's what it does - And just because the term becomes popularly associated with the electronic version does not mean that it doesn't associate with the mechanical version.

Because that guy's name is Tom doesn't mean it cancels out your name being Tom too - Just requires being specific as to which is being referenced.

This issue doesn't exist with any other mix - It is accepted that both versions are the same thing with the same name - But in this case we refer to these different versions often and need to be specific.

Somewhere along the way CCPM became associated exclusively with the electronic version - But that is in the process of change now. No more special treatment of the electronic version at the tune of not having a proper term for the mechanical version. The proper term is the same for both and just requires being 1 character more specific in the company of both versions.
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07-17-2006 10:51 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Agree
Matt. I agree completely with you on the term being used "CCPM" accurately describes every one that uses the swashplate to change collective.

My thing with the "mixing" is it doesn't happen prior to the swashplate via mechanical means. The inputs on a raptor are completely independant from each other. They do not interact and affect each other untill after the swash plate so how are they "mixed"? because the collective manipulated the entire roll cyclic system to make a collective input? I call that using it as a fixed link, not "mixing" or maybe even go as far as like the one link said, it's an intermediate mix. Because when you say eCCPM it still doesn't accurately describe what goes on in a heli like a Vigor or Fury. The controls are still mechanicaly mixed above the swash plate along with being electronically mixed via the radio. The e and m doesn't clarify and accurately describe anything in the "context" of it's use in heli's today so why use it in every day conversation on here referencing different models of helicopters?

I am glad that we do agree that everyone knows exactly what we are talking about when the word CCPM comes out.
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07-17-2006 10:54 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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The inputs and the outputs may be independant of each other - But the methods to carry out those commands are not independant of each other.
Somewhere between your fingers and the swash, a mix must occur.
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07-17-2006 10:56 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Objection your honor!!!
No more special treatment of the electronic version at the tune of not having a proper term for the mechanical version. The proper term is the same for both and just requires being 1 character more specific in the company of both versions.
Your adding one character doesn't make it correct. They are all mechanically mixed whenever the swashplate is manipulated to make a collective input so it the term "m" accurately covers both systems. So therefore no need to have it. It doesn't diferentiate a thing between the two types. So.....

Send your next acronym up for evaluation......


The survey says............. NO
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07-17-2006 10:59 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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You basically just contradicted yourself in the same breath - If both methods are CCPM then how do you specify which version your are talking about?

One version the mix is performed electronically before the servos even and the other version is performed between the servos and the swash.
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07-17-2006 11:01 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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But you can't "alienate" the feelings of the mix that actually happens at the swashplate that is NO SH1T "CCPM"!!! We can't do that or in a few years we are going to be re-naming it all over again. So lets get it right this time.

Maybe we should just say this.....

CCPM is now going to be called "the mix formerly known as CCPM" "you know.... The sh1t in your radio"

mCCPM is now "mechanical control mixing" "you know..... the sh1t your craptor does with the collective".

That is accurate wouldn't you say?
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07-17-2006 11:03 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Have fun typing that all over the internet everyday.

But you are jumping ahead to what the swash does rather than what is done to the swash and how. One is an electronic mix articulating the swash and the other is a mechanical mix articulating the swash. Both mixes are "CCPM".
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07-17-2006 11:09 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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No need too.
Because it came to be over the years that CCPM is completely understood. Just like the links and people like Curtis, Mike Mas, and tons of others have understood and passed on for years. These guys made this hobby and the industry wide terms used to describe it are what I use. Not some home made slang.

When you pick up a radio box and it says it supports five types of CCPM and it reads like this

1 servo Non CCPM, standart mix
2 servo 180 degree CCPM
3 servo 120 degree CCPM (most popular)
3 servo 140 degree CCPM (Vigor CS)
3 Servo 90 degree CCPM
4 Servo 90 degree CCPM

Correct me if I'm wrong but you know exactly what they are talking about. Notice 5 say CCPM and one is not for a total of six control methods. I guess you can change it when two of the three major manufacturers put it in their manuals. Radio or heli manufacturers that is. Untill then it's slang.
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07-17-2006 11:12 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Once again, both are electronically actuated (moved) in order to acheive the movement of the swashplate which is where the "mixing magic" happens.In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-17-2006 11:13 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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But that is inaccurate and in dispute - That's why we're here discussing new or rather more specific terminology.

So we're back to denying the existance of mechanical mixing? All mixing is radio magic, eh? e.g. Back to square-one in this discussion? We have to establish all over again that a mechanical mix does exist and that it is a "CCPM"?
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07-17-2006 11:20 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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So what is in dispute?

the fact they are all Electronicaly actuated? Can't dispute that.

They are all (with the exception of the wire up the mast old school) Mechanically mixed? Can't dispute that either. SO if you are in the mood to do your doctoring of the acronyms try again. As for right now CCPM as it's commonly used in r/c heli's is reffering to the radio function required to support the "more than one servo" set up of the flight controls.

Please drive through.......
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07-17-2006 11:23 PM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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What are you saying? - You say there is electronic mixing and there is mechanical mixing but we can't be specific about which? You're not making any sense.

If you're talking about above the swash then they are all mechanically mixed - But I'm pretty sure we established and agreed that what happens above the swash is no concern of ours here.

I also thought we had agreed that this is a "terminology" issue and not a "what do you consider a mix?" issue. It's a mix already whichever method - Now use specific terminology to reference them without the use of such layman terms as "standard mix" etc.
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07-17-2006 11:39 PM  14 years ago
shawgl

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Since the early days of this discussion.
After listening to Matt I have really thought a lot about this and have come to the conclusion that I agree with him.

CCPM (literal form) is used in all of these heli's where the swash is moved to make both collective and cyclic inputs. It really does happen, whether above or below the swashplate. All systems are electronically actuated and mechanicaly mixed in this manner regardless of where it happens, above or below.

So if you want to add an e or m in front of it... It still doesn't accurately describe the "whole control concept" which is what you are looking for right? An accurate description. So I guess if you are reffering to emCCPM as the servo's being mixed by the radio, I can agree with your terminology but they are still mechanically mixed above the swash so it's not quite as effective as it sounded at first now is it? And mCCPM being not mixed by the radio I would agree. But untill then I don't need the acronyms.....


CCPM is still term used to identify equipment requirements. Nothing more. No need to get all literal up in this beeaatch. Know what I mean.

From this day forth I dub all refferences to read as follows....


Craptor or non Craptor controls

Court is dismissed

Matt you have some good points.
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07-18-2006 12:06 AM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Well it seems you're coming around some anyways.

My point is CCPM is the term for a mix that articulates the swash whether it's performed via electronic method or mechanical method but it happenned to become associated exclusively with the electronic method leading to the mechanical version being called something else or acknolwedgement of it's existance denied entirely.

We are here discussing this to give the mechanical method it's proper terminology which like all other mixes is the same terminology as it's electronic counterpart. So since we so frequently discuss both methods we need more specific but equally simple terminology to reference the different methods with.

To date the most accepted and understood new terms are eCCPM and mCCPM.

Are we on the same page now?
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07-18-2006 12:22 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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E and M is not needed. The only time it is discussed is in threads like this. I have not heard anyone EVER ask what type of mechanical mix would you call the collective system on a Raptor. Not once.. YOU want a name for it. Like I said.... When I say CCPM you know exactly what I am talking about. No questions asked. You don't come back and say..... Well Greg, you know...... Are you talking about the Mechanical type that all these heli's use because the swash moves or are you talking about the type that the radio mixes? You just don't hear that. EVER

I have never heard anyone say..... You know Bob.... This damn Raptor control system is pretty complex. maybe we should give it an acronym. Oh wait!!!!!! YOU DID My bad.

No need for another acronym to describe a toy helicopter control system. It all refers to a simple thing. equipment required to operate it Thats what it is, that's how it's used.
In God we trust, everyone else we monitor.
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07-18-2006 12:39 AM  14 years ago
shawgl

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HOOTOWL
Another clue there is a naming issue is you never see CCPM mentioned in radio manuals. They don't go there because the industry is so screwed up.
I took that from your original post on this. Well my good Sir if you will please allow me to retort. Please look in the JR 10X and JR 9303 along with the Futaba 9C manuals. It's in there. Pg H-19 for the 9303 as a matter of fact.

This shows acceptance by the "industry" two major manufacturers using the same term to define the same thing. I would say that it's pretty solid that it's acceptable.

It's not the industry, HMMMMMMM who could it be then?
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07-18-2006 01:22 AM  14 years ago
Micro-Maniac

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Are you absorbing anything? This whole discussion is about the need to be specific about the two different mixing methods in order to eliminate confusion in discussions wherever however.

Many of us have no problem using the term mCCPM to describe the mixing method used by Raptors. At the field I wouldn't need to verbally use the acrynym and would simply say "mechanical". Here in the forums it's much simpler to use acronyms than to type out "mechanical" etc which is why acronyms were invented in the first place. - What simple term would you call the mechanical mixing method used by Raptors that distinguishes it from the electronic mixing method used by Furies?
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › eCCPM, mCCPM,CCPM, non CCPM SWM HPM M&M S&M
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