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02-11-2006 09:07 AM  12 years agoPost 1
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Well after all the raving I thought I would try this DX6 System out. Setup was pretty straight forward, got the little rx all neatly tucked in and ready to go. Started going through the checks of pitch etc and a very dissapointing fact became evident. The CCPM mixing program is very inaccurate in the DX6. Upon full left Aileron movements it had collective interaction, the center swash ball was moving at least a mm to 1.5mm. Way too much and can guarantee that on a simple roll it would look sloppy and upon going inverted it would look silly and fly silly as well like that. Making sure it was not just something done wrong on my setup and making sure to see if it was the mixing capability of the radio I hooked up my 9C to my 146iP rx as I had set this all up initally before the Spektrum. Smooth as glass and stayed perfect throughout the same stick movements. Looked through DX again to make sure there was nothing funny I had done wrong and everything was set perfect. My conclusion is the DX6 tx is ok imho for a beginner not doing 3D, and if you did learn with this radio 3D it would not be cool going to a much higher caliber radio afterwards it would screw you up I would think.


I did not do the 6102 conversion as I do not have the radio yet and am now thinking and wanting to ask those who have done the conversion. ....

Other than more throttle and pitch curves, better esthetically and so fourth does the 6102 have better mixing capability where this collective interaction is not present? If there is any interaction and the mixing is as poor as this DX6 then I will not be proceeding any further messing with this buisness. If someone has directly compared the DX6 and the 6102 in this regards and has an accurate truthfull comparison, I'd love to hear from you.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-11-2006 10:24 AM  12 years agoPost 2
Rob_T

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I see what you mean. I set the dual rate for elevator to 0 (so there wouldn't be any accidental elevator input) and did some experiments. The swash does move (up or down) with fast aileron movements, but doesn't seem to for slow movements. The elevator servo was rock steady during this experiment (no movement at all). What this means to me is that it's not actually a collective interaction but an elevator interaction (not sure if that's any better though )

The swash movement doesn't seem to be in a single direction, but it seem to move and then return to the correct position. I wonder if this is timing related. It's almost as if channels 2 and 6 are working with different delays (in fact as I've never looked at my heli this critically before, maybe my servos do have diferent speeds.)

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02-11-2006 11:20 AM  12 years agoPost 3
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Not the servos ......
Call me a perfectionist but I always look at my heli setups this critical. The setup is everything and it will mean everything in your progression & general flying imho as well.

Its not the servos, I thought that first as well as did a good freind of mine much wiser in setups then me, I am using Hitec 56 on swash. That is why I went through all the pain to switch it out with my 146iP Futaba pcm reciever and try it with my 9C, the movement was perfect and the timing issue as you call it "could say that" did not exist. Then to reconfirm I put the DX6 back in place, it was obvious the difference of the programming quality and the guts difference if you will between the two. I am always willing to accept my mistakes in my flying when I screw up in a manevuer but I sureley do not want to be fighting the radio programming quality and timing either. I really like the idea of Spektrum and it was all looking so good up to this point but I am not willing to accept this flaw as I can assure you this affects flight if you are trying to do precision rolls and flips etc....For basic hovering around slow movements this may not be so noticeable but when you start doing things more advanced it will become very obvious. Rant on,,, oh well I fitted my pcm in there for maiden flight and that will do just fine until I get some feedback whether the programming patterns are better in the 6102 or not, then I may modify one of them and try again we'll see. It disturbs me they didn't release a better version as an option, I would have paid the extra bucks for a better quality radio, heck I would have paid double to have something real nice with that technology. Have a good weekend all!

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-11-2006 02:07 PM  12 years agoPost 4
mdelzer

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Grand Rapids, MI

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Well that just saved me $200. I was about to get a DX6 for a CDE rex. Now I guess I'll be getting the 7CHP like I was planning before. I wonder if it might be some kind of clocking issue with the spektrum technology. In other words, if current technology is using a crystal for frequency, odds are that the entire receiver is running at that speed of the crystal. So now if we take the crystal out and don't have a reliable clock source, the variations in speed could be causing the potential 'delay' you're seeing in the servos. (I hope that made sense)

Mark

Mark

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02-11-2006 02:23 PM  12 years agoPost 5
lbowen

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York S. Carolina-USA

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I had some VERY slight interaction roll to pitch - but I played with the CCPM Mixing and got 0 interaction at +60, +60, -70 with a Heliup frame and all HS56 servos I did fiddle with the control rod lengths rather than anything other than 0 sub trim. Minimal radio options but after about 4 hours flying time now - the glitch free is good for me.

lbowen

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02-11-2006 02:49 PM  12 years agoPost 6
HUTCH964

rrKey Veteran

Taylor,Texas 76574 local airport T74

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The CCPM mixing program is very inaccurate in the DX6. Upon full left Aileron movements it had collective interaction, the center swash ball was moving at least a mm to 1.5mm.
Yes & I have the same problem with the 9303 so I will have to spend more time on the setup! I don't think it is the radio's just the way we set them up?

I will let you know what I did wrong!


*****

Tim

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02-11-2006 03:34 PM  12 years agoPost 7
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

I now use only the DX 6, ccpm is at least as accurate as that on my 9303...Sub trim and EPA must be used to minimize interactions on cyclic. Epa adjust is critical......I have no trouble with any maneuver I can do with the rex due to interaction, but the bench setup does take a while...
While not as precise as my Raptors, the size of the rex must be taken into account....
All in all still more fun than a barrel of prostitutes!

John.

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02-11-2006 03:41 PM  12 years agoPost 8
catfight

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USA

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drdot,

Would you please expound upon the EPA and sub-trim adjustments you use and/or the process? Sounds very interesting.

Thanks

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02-11-2006 09:17 PM  12 years agoPost 9
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Yes I guess that is what I was trying to get at Bob, thanks. As you can see from your link there "great find btw" my 9C Super has a huge difference in comparison to the DX6, not even close to be honest. OH well I should have listened and back to waiting for the newer stuff, lol.

BTW I can 100% gurantee my setup, rod lengths, all the geometry everything is bang on. I use 0 sub trims, always use even EPAs' etc.... like I had mentioned without touching either radio and just doing a swap of the rx and radio the difference is night and day so screw it for now. I am going to look into how much better mixing wise this 6102 is over the DX6 and maybe think about doing that but if not I'll just fly it with my good ol 9C and pcm.

And yes Bob I know, I know....lol

So is the 6102 conversion worth it or is it going to yelid yet the same results? If so I am done with the Spektrum world for awhile.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-11-2006 10:28 PM  12 years agoPost 10
catfight

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USA

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Am I reading the charts wrong or is the Futaba 9C with PCM not more latent then the DX6? I also do not understand how latency on 1 channel could effect a "bump" in transistion at the swash because all channels would have equal latency (if not I don't understand why not -especially in a digital radio like the DX6- and would appreciate an explanation)across frames. Perhaps this is a setup issue like others stated? I just want mine to be right :0)

Thanks

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02-12-2006 12:29 AM  12 years agoPost 11
BoneDoc

rrApprentice

San Antonio, TX

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If you already have the Futaba PCM, why go DX6? Were you getting glitching with it?

**If you ain't crashing, you ain't flying hard enough**

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02-12-2006 12:49 AM  12 years agoPost 12
TheX

rrApprentice

Newport Beach, California

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I answered the thread at RCG. I have the 6102 conversion and I tested the mixing today. When I give my main Rex flull cyclic in either direction the swash stays at absolutely one level, there is no odd interaction happening. I don't have a DX6 anymore to compare with but the Spektrumized 6102 is flawless as far as the CCPM mixing is concerned.

Hope this helps.

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02-12-2006 03:42 AM  12 years agoPost 13
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Ummm again it is not a setup issue, I know how to program a friggen radio, if it were I would have seen it in another radio, ie the test with 9C, it is in the mixing as noted in the beggining of this post so please read before posting thanks. In regards to the 6102 thanks for that check The X, I may just go and still try that out then. I wanted to try this dX6 not because I have any issue with my 9C, no issues with glitching either. Just wanted to see what all the excitement was about,,,, plus more and more I am flying my micros around town as it takes time to goto the bigger feilds and thinking about the interference issues in a busy area the Spektrum sounds be the better way to go in that regards,,,, which,,, is why I wanted to give it a go. Anyhooo enough of that,,, I will post my findings later after hacking into the 6102, cheers.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-12-2006 05:09 AM  12 years agoPost 14
Hellijunky

rrVeteran

Chicago

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Sorry you had to become a sort of paying beta tester on the dx6 system OICU812, but i am not sorry to finally get some Intel on it from someone
who's opinion i trust... i have put up a couple posts asking about it i almost got sucked into it too,though my reasons for not jumping rite on it were a bit more superficial ...IMHO the radio looks crapy and cheep, after reading what you had to say about it,in this case i guess you can judge a book by its cover lol.. think i will cross the dx6 off my wish list of things i want, and wait for fataba to come out with something similar

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02-12-2006 05:16 AM  12 years agoPost 15
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Heh, first of all thanks for the kind words, but it was my choice to try so no need to feel sorry at all. Just so it is clear I am not saying it is junk, I think the idea behind it and the technology is incredible to be honest. I just didn't think the radio would be as bad as it was... I still have it all sitting in my basement, I still may put it all in the 6102 and try it. Once I do that I can not take anything back for refund so I have to think about this more first and do some more research. The X states the 6102 is good, that I trust as you do my statements. I personally may be just more picky on things then some, but I refuse to have a system mess with my flying as stated. I would love to see Futaba come out with something like this, but I am not sure that with patents etc that they will be able to anytime soon. All I know if this will change rc allot imho and really make is safer and funner for all of us. It is going to be really nice when you see less people losing models and most of all less people losing interest in the hobby due to the expense related to the risk of lock outs and glitches. I am really stoked about the future in RC.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-12-2006 05:21 AM  12 years agoPost 16
Rob_T

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I think latency is a side effect to what's going on - note that the 9C has greater latency (and more variance in it) than the Spektrum DX6.

I think what's going on is that the stick is being sampled before the value for each channel is calculated in the Spektrum. This would lower the latency, but also introduce exactly this weirdness when the sticks are moving- while the stick is moving this would mean that the aileron stick position used to position channel 2 would be about 6ms ahead of the stick position used for channel 6. If you figure you can bang the stick from side to side in about a quarter second, maybe less- that 6ms translates into about 2.5% of the movement of the stick. Thats easily enough to cause a problem during fast stick movements.

Maybe the different channel numbers used by Futaba are significant here. Maybe Futaba only samples the sticks once per frame instead of several times.

Dont know for sure, this is all speculation based on observations of what seems to happen.

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02-12-2006 05:27 AM  12 years agoPost 17
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Bob yes you did tell me, I just didn't want to sound like I was slamming the system as so many here on RR praise it. I only wanted to point out something that was important to me and that was the precision ability of the movements in relation to the technology packed into it. Latency, timing, blah blah I don't know to be honest why it does what it does, but I can assure you that it does and if you are anything of a pilot or wish to be a pilot that flies with precision this system is not going to do that for you. Learning to do maneuvers with this is going to add timing and corrections not needed and furthermore will look funny imho. I am certainly not a high profile pilot imho but I do pride myself on trying to be as smooth as possible and try to get better at precision all the time.

Rob,, again I have no clue why it does what it does and what the true technical reason is,,, I just know I do not like it the way it is. Again,,, I am not done yet... I may throw it into a 6102 yet and see,,,, maybe.. have a good night all

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-12-2006 05:43 AM  12 years agoPost 18
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Well The X and a few others have stated this issue is non existent on the 6102, therefore it would be directly towards the radio programming and not the actual frequency calculations etc...correct?

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-12-2006 05:51 AM  12 years agoPost 19
Rob_T

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therefore it would be directly towards the radio programming and not the actual frequency calculations etc...correct?
I think so...

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02-12-2006 06:05 AM  12 years agoPost 20
Rob_T

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I have to assume the DX doesnt sent straight pulses like a PPM radio and thus packets the information... I am not sure but I am assuming it does.
The Spektrum RF module plugs in in place of the 6102 RF module. It doesn't have access to the sticks, just the encoded PPM data. Any packeting done for transmission cant do anything that drastic to the PPM data, as there is no other input to the RF module.

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