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Other › Looking for some CDE tips for a beginner
02-11-2006 04:28 AM  12 years agoPost 1
MikeWz

rrNovice

Long Island, NY

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I was able to snag a 450XL CDE recently. It's going to be my first helicopter, though I've built a Raptor 30V2 a few years back and was unable to finish getting the parts for it. I was hoping you guys could give me some suggestions as far as motor/esc combo, servos and gyros go. I've already got a Hitec Optic, 3S 1100Mah pack and some video on setting up the CDE on order. I'm not sure if the radio gives instructions on how exactly to set-up pitch curves, or simply how to put them into the radio, but how should I have the pitch set-up and how do I go about setting it up that way? Thanks for any and all help guys, it's appreciated

"Sorry officer, with all those strobes and stickers I thought you wanted to race"

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02-11-2006 05:13 AM  12 years agoPost 2
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Hmmm...get ready for about a million suggestions, all of which will be better than the other.

First, the 1100 mah 3S battery might make a good paperweight, but won't be too useful in a T-Rex. Thunder Power TP2100 3S ProLites are excellent all around batteries for the Rex. 2100 mah, 15C continuous discharge rated (a little more than 30 amps).

Motor -- you'll get hundreds of answers. This is your first electric, and your second heli. The Just Go Fly 400DH would be a great first motor. Relatively inexpensive, good power, and lightweight. Easy on batteries, too. An 8-tooth pinion works fine, some have upped that to a 9-tooth for a bit more performance.

ESC -- some will tell you to pop about $160+ for a Kontronik Jazz. Many will tell you the Castle Creations Phoenix 35 is crap. I've got three CC35s, two in T-Rexs for over a year, one in a new Kyosho EP400. In general, they are pretty good (they do have their quirks) and can be had for about half the price of the Jazz. If you pick up the Phoenix Link cable, programming is a snap, and you get a chance to upgrade software as CC rolls out new versions.

For a gyro, you can save a few bucks and put in a Futaba GY240, but for only a "few dollars more" the GY401 is by far one of the best all around gyros for the T-Rex. It has some key features that the basic GY240 lacks (travel limit adjust, ability to take advantage of a digital servo's capability, gain that can be selected from the transmitter).

Servos. Again, a lot of options, and everyone has their favorite. For the collective and two cyclic (roll and pitch) servos, the Hitec HS55's will work, their HS56's are much better -- I'd go with the HS56's. The tail rotor servo could be an HS56 as well, the smaller HS50 works fine with the GY401 (has a tendency for the case to pop apart unless you tape the case together) and would be a satisfactory servo for the tail. If you want digital performance, the Futaba 9650 is a popular choice for a TR servo, as well.

The T-Rex assembly manual has some good recommended throttle and pitch curves printed in it. They make a great starting point to work from. Since this is your first electric, they would work pretty well for you.

As for setting up the CCPM stuff --

http://www.runryder.com/t217182p1/

my post, the fourth one down has been used by quite a few people with success to get their helis up and running. Lots of reading, but worth it.

If you spring for a Castle Creations Phoenix 35 ESC, here's a link to a document from Castle that explains the various settings available for it:

http://www.runryder.com/gallery/417...s_Explained.pdf

Dave

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02-11-2006 02:12 PM  12 years agoPost 3
GyroRon

rrApprentice

Fort Mill South Carolina

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Dave great post. Wish everyone took the time to give such nice and thoughtful replys!

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02-11-2006 02:26 PM  12 years agoPost 4
matrix

rrNovice

Central NJ

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Align 25A ESC
Will the 25A Align ESC (the one that comes with the stock CDE) be able to handle the TP2100 3S ProLites ? It they discharge at 30A I guess the answer is NO???

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02-11-2006 02:27 PM  12 years agoPost 5
matrix

rrNovice

Central NJ

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Sorry, you were looking for tips....I was going to suggest dkshema's link to the CCPM setup, but I see he beat me to it....

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02-11-2006 03:02 PM  12 years agoPost 6
GyroRon

rrApprentice

Fort Mill South Carolina

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Matrix, I use a JGF 450th with 13 tooth pinion and use a CC 25 ESC. A friend and I used a amp meter between the ESC and the TP2100 battery and only at the extreme hardest of throttle setting and highest pitch was the amp draw over 25 amps. For where the majority of the flying will be the amp draw with my set up will be in the 15-18 amp max range.

So I would think you would be okay with the 25 amp ESC....

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02-11-2006 03:46 PM  12 years agoPost 7
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

My flame suit is on, but here goes..

The stock Align ESC and motors work fine..I use the 35Amp and 430/13 tooth for fairly heavy 3D...More than enough power..Yes , I used Jazz and Astro also..Went back to Align...


Apex 12C 2200 packs are a good inexpensive choice, and Dymond sells a 2000mah 3cell thai I've used a lot also..

Thunder Power makes a great pack, but the cost is higher.

Radio...Spektrum DX 6 is the only game in town..Servos are fine also..

Gyro..401. period. use in non digital mode on S75 servo, holds ok for beginners..move to 9650 when you feel like Alan S.

Good Luck!

John.

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02-11-2006 04:11 PM  12 years agoPost 8
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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drdot -- no need for the flame suit -- you've given useful suggestions. Save the flame suit for those really controversial posts that usually start out "What is the best....".

Matrix -- The size of the battery has nothing to do with the amount of amps your ESC needs to be. A lot of people are getting away with using 25A ESCs. If you look to the future as your skills improve, the 35A is the better choice. You'll no doubt want to upgrade power plants along the way, and you won't need to dump the 25 amp ESC as you do.

ESC amp rating is determined by the current draw of the motor you're going to use, under load. If you move to motors like the 450TH or Align 430L or some of the hotter motors on the market (higher wattage), a 25 amp ESC won't cut it. Not only due to the average current load, but the peaks caused by sudden throttle changes.

When you run into the higher wattage (performance) motors, a 12C battery will also be on the marginal side. I've got a 450TH and my TP2100 Gen II batteries just don't get along well with it. The new ProLites, however, do, and they are 15C rated. My Align 430Ls also are more at home with the ProLites than the lower rated Gen IIs.

I didn't recommend a radio since this fellow already has the Optic 6 on the way. I did recommend a bigger battery because the one he also has on order is way too small to do anything useful.

I didn't recommend the Align 430L or the 450TH, since this is this fellow's first electric, and second heli ever (and he never finished the first one). Yes, the Align motors and ESCs have worked well for people. The 400DH is relatively inexpensive, does a good job - especially for a new flyer, and is easy on batteries. With an 8 or 9 tooth pinion, he'll be turning 2400 RPM or so, enough to to some respectable progression in his flying skills without having to worry about throwing main or tail rotor blades, or having to dump extra money into upgrade grips, TR hubs and the like.

When I answer questions like the one posed by MikeWz, I usually take into account the fellow's experience and try to recommend stuff that is proven, works well, and is easy on the budget.

Dave

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02-11-2006 10:34 PM  12 years agoPost 9
MikeWz

rrNovice

Long Island, NY

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Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it.
DK - Where can I get these prolites your talking about? HH doesn't have the 2100mah packs listed, just 2000mah. Also, the motor suggested is listed as an outrunner. What exactly does that mean? And it's a 2.3mm shaft so I have to buy new pinions than. Is there another motor for not too much more I could use that'll have the 3.2mm shaft? Something along the lines of the Align 400LF/HF?
I'm more than likely going to get the CC 35A controller unless anyone has any reason to talk me out of it. So I'm guessing it would be able to handle one of those align motors. I was also looking at the Astro 803T, because apparently it was designed for the T-rex. Would that be a decent motor that'll take me fairly far?

"Sorry officer, with all those strobes and stickers I thought you wanted to race"

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02-11-2006 11:29 PM  12 years agoPost 10
Gary Hoorn

rrKey Veteran

Annapolis Maryland USA

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If you are considering the Align 430L motor get the Align 35amp speed control as well. They sell them as a combo at a cost saving. Make sure you get the latest 430L with the Silver End Bells! TP Prolite Lipos are available from most reputable e-tailers.
Gary

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02-11-2006 11:51 PM  12 years agoPost 11
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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In an outrunner, the outer shell of the motor spins. If you go to the Just Go Fly website, take a look at the 400DH. The silver part of the motor spins along with the shaft.

As for pinions, you could pick them up at Just Go Fly along with the motor. A few $$$ extra. Different pinions or shaft size wouldn't be a show stopper.

If you're looking for a motor that will take you a long way, the JGF 450TH (has a shaft that fits the stock T-Rex pinions) is good, as is the Align 430L/3550KV motor. As Gary Hoorn says, the new one with the SILVER end bells is the one to get -- the bells are threaded on. The original 430L/3550KV motor has gold end bells, is a good motor, but since the end bells ar pressed on, they have a tendency for some people to separate in flight.

While we're talking separation in flight -- if you haven't read the post a the top of the T-Rex forum about "How to fix your swash" -- read it and do what it says. It may save you a crash due to the swashplate coming apart.

As Gary stated, the TP2100S ProLites are available just about everywhere. I got mine at http://www.lightflightrc.com/ for a reasonable price.

Dave

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02-12-2006 01:04 AM  12 years agoPost 12
Awamori

rrApprentice

Minot, ND

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dkshema
No real need for this guy to search around after you put up the link for lightflightrc.com! Thats the lowest price I have seen yet for TP Prolights. It was so good that I had to pick one up myself. His balancers are a great price as well. Thanks for posting that up and helping me drop some more hard earned cash

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02-12-2006 01:32 AM  12 years agoPost 13
Caliber1

rrApprentice

Fort Worth, TX

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dkshema
If you're looking for a motor that will take you a long way, the JGF 450TH (has a shaft that fits the stock T-Rex pinions) is good, as is the Align 430L/3550KV motor
Do you recommend a heatsink for either of these motors? Any, if you could be so kind... Who are your suppliers for these motors?

Dollar for Dollar, which one would you recommend?

Thanks.

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02-12-2006 03:37 AM  12 years agoPost 14
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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The 450TH is an outrunner, no way to heatsink it, and you don't need it, anyway.

Don't need a heat sink for the 430L, either.

The motors are roughly the same price. Both are good performers. If you can be sure to get the NEW 430L/3550KV motor, go with it. If you get it, and it has gold end bells, send it back -- get the new one with silver bells.

Dave

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02-12-2006 03:58 AM  12 years agoPost 15
S76 Mech

rrElite Veteran

Hatboro, Pa.

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Trextuning.com has some good info on a CDE build, I used its info when I built my CDE.

http://www.trextuning.com/

Gaui Greatness X7, X5, NX4, X3

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02-12-2006 05:45 PM  12 years agoPost 16
MikeWz

rrNovice

Long Island, NY

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So I checked out those packs....$70 huh? From reading I understand that sometimes these packs have a tendancy to swell or even burst if not taken care of poperly...and sometimes even when they are. Anything cheap I can get for the first pack just for hovering and forward flight stuff that I can get so while learning how to take care of them I don't blow up an nice expensive pack?

"Sorry officer, with all those strobes and stickers I thought you wanted to race"

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02-12-2006 06:39 PM  12 years agoPost 17
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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You can't predict which LiPo pack is going to swell up and die, that's not just a TP thing. For a 2100 mah 15C pack, $70 is a pretty good price.

You might consider these Apex packs:

http://www.modefosheli.com/inc/sdetail/26356

or these Hyperion packs:

http://www.modefosheli.com/inc/sdetail/39371

The Apex packs are only 12C, so an Align 430L or 450TH might eat them for lunch. At 12C, these are the equivalents of the older TP Gen II batteries. The Hyperions are only a few dollars less than the TPs, as are the equivalent Align packs.

I had considered buying these packs:

http://www.justgofly.com/Order%20Form.htm#Batteries

(the 2200 mah variety) till I took a closer look at the specs over on the right-hand side of the page and realized the "C" ratings quoted in large print are BURST ratings, not CONTINUOUS, whereas the TPs, APEX, Hyperion, and Align packs are continuous ratings, with higher burst ratings.

You're going to end up paying about the same amount per pack +/- a few dollars, for equivalent packs.

As for damaging them, just take care of them. Buy and use a decent LiPo charger. Read the care instructions, and make sure the charger is programmed right. Don't overcharge -- too high a voltage, or with too much current (greater than 1C), and don't discharge them below 3.0 volts per cell. Pay attention to the temperature during discharge, storage, and charging. There are a lot of horror stories about LiPos swelling, dying prematurely, exploding, catching fire, to be sure. But there are a lot more non-stories about them just going and going and going...without a hitch.

Dave

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02-13-2006 03:04 AM  12 years agoPost 18
MikeWz

rrNovice

Long Island, NY

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Dave - thanks for all your help, and sorry for all the questions. Just want to get them out of the way now before I screw something up. Recently I decided to go out and get a Honey Bee CP2 on my own, and had nothing but problems. HH had a package with an Align 25A ESC, a Razor Micro Heli V2 motor and a GWS 5A ESC for the tail. Well, apparently that ESC was rated for 8 NiCad packs...but the package came with a 3cell Lipo pack. Fried the Tail esc. It was just problem after problem and I want to avoid it this time around.
Any charger you can recommend, and any tips you can offer on taking care of the LiPos? Thanks again

"Sorry officer, with all those strobes and stickers I thought you wanted to race"

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02-13-2006 04:08 AM  12 years agoPost 19
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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The safest way to keep from getting screwed is to do your homework. Know what you're looking for when you go shopping.

There are a lot of good chargers, one of the most popular is the Triton. I'm using a Hobbico Accucycle Elite. Fairly new to the charging market is the balancing charger. It's supposed to keep tabs on the individual cells during charging and charge them equally. This is supposed to keep the batteries healthy much longer than if you don't use a balancer. Most "new" packs these days now have a second smaller connector on them to hook up to the balancer. I haven't yet sprung for one, but then I've got a small fleet of helis to feed, and they're hungry all the time!

Whatever charger you get, make sure that it is designed for Lithium Polymer batteries, and read the instructions. Make sure you understand what it can and can't do, and how to use it.

When you buy the batteries, the website will usually have a detailed battery safety sheet, and the seller will probably ship a copy to you. My last set of TP2100 Pro Lites came with an 8-1/2 x 11 sheet, printed in small type, both sides, telling how to take care of the batteries. Whatever you get, read it and believe what it tells you.

You can read the safety sheet here:

http://www.thunderpower-batteries.c...etyWarnings.pdf

LiPos are great but they deserve some respect.

Dave

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