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Other › Possible solution to Tail 'Wag'....from an expert Trex builder!
02-08-2006 09:08 AM  12 years agoPost 1
AH-1 pilot

rrKey Veteran

Tampa, Florida

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My friend loves the way his Trex performs...that readyheli built/test flew for him, so I gave them a call and told readyheli about my wag, and he suggested the following. I have not tried this yet, as I'm out of town at the moment, but will try it this evening...I'm excited to see if this will help my 'wag' Please try it.... if your using the gy401/9650 servo, and post results!

"Gain around 45-50 usually with outer hole on 9650
mounted just like joes and
run 40-80 delay. Digital servo mode should be off.
The 9650 wasn't designed
for the high frame rate tail like the 9253/9254."

If I get a second backup Trex,I'm going to have readyheli build and test fly, mailed back in the silver case. I like building, just have limited time, studio apartment stays messy for days = no girls over when the crib has Trex stuff all over the place.

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02-08-2006 09:49 AM  12 years agoPost 2
Drunk Monk

rrProfessor

Preston, UK

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Well I know 2 people that have a 401/9650 and use DS mode with the gain 45-50% with no delay and it holds perfectly, no wag. Backwards hurricanes, funnels etc. We found that it would wag and not hold properly when it wasn't in DS mode but didn't use any delay. The only issue we did have was the pitch slider not being smooth enough but rebuilding the tail sorted that out and now it's silky smooth.

It is a great setup with the 401/9650 though, very impressive


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....

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02-08-2006 12:09 PM  12 years agoPost 3
Critterracing

rrApprentice

totowa nj good old USA

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thats alot of gain. im at 0 gain on the gyro and in my radio ( futaba 6exh radio, gy401 and 9650) im at like 22 percent. with this i still get alittle wag and a little bit of looseness in the tail. strange.

seems to drift alittle but if i increase gain in the radio or gyro i get way to much wag. if i shut the HH off the tail holds fine so she's good mechanically. just not rock solid like my friends with a hs56 in back.

any idea's?

aldo

My Gallery http://www.crispycrittershobbyshop.com/Gallery/albums.php

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02-08-2006 01:49 PM  12 years agoPost 4
gkoutsis

rrKey Veteran

Athens Greece

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I am at 60%, no delay, DS mode with a 9650 and it doesn't drift or wag at all.

I made sure I have a smooth tail linkage otherwise I need to reduce the gain to 50.

George

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02-08-2006 02:50 PM  12 years agoPost 5
Ezra

rrApprentice

Blue Mountain Beach, FL

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Drunk Monk,

That's the setup i'm running (same gain even) and it's great except the tail is still pushing out a little in tic-tocs & such. Have you had any of this? It's driving me nuts. Linkage is smooth but there is that slight slop where the bell crank attaches to the slider.

I'm open for suggestions from anyone. Maybe I just need to practice more...

Alan

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02-08-2006 02:59 PM  12 years agoPost 6
Drunk Monk

rrProfessor

Preston, UK

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You'll never get perfection, it's just too small a heli but you shouldn't get any wag. If your losing alot of headspeed on the tic toc then you will get a kick.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....

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02-08-2006 03:34 PM  12 years agoPost 7
ChrisT88

rrVeteran

FL

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You'll never get perfection, it's just too small a heli but you shouldn't get any wag. If your losing alot of headspeed on the tic toc then you will get a kick.
When I build them with a 9650 the tail holds perfectly.


If you get wag in hard manuvers reduce gain. If you get "bounce" after rudder inputs reduce delay. The 9650 is a wing servo and not designed for the tail like a 9253/9254. It will probably last along time in DS mode but why risk it when you can run it out of DS and still get awesome holding power?

The key to a tail holding is no vibes, smooth tail slider action and the tail push rod must also move freely in the boom brace mount. Past that good carbon blades will help keep the tracking in and vibes down during really hard manuvers. This also helps the tail hold well.

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02-08-2006 04:00 PM  12 years agoPost 8
Ezra

rrApprentice

Blue Mountain Beach, FL

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Thanks guys,

Yeah, I think I need to find a way to get that tiny bit of slop out. My gain is set properly, a couple of percent below "wag level" and I have zero delay in DS mode, but I'm still getting noticeable bounce after piros. I may try running it analog like you're doing Chris, & see if that helps.

Alan

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02-08-2006 04:03 PM  12 years agoPost 9
ChrisT88

rrVeteran

FL

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That slop is in every SE tail and isn't a problem IMO (although it would be nice if Align had a v3 and fixed it ). Take it out of DS and up the delay to around 50 or so. It will still hold perfectly during 3D

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02-08-2006 04:08 PM  12 years agoPost 10
AceHelis

rrVeteran

Georgetown, Texas

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Gain?
I have the 9ch radio and my understanding is that below 50% you are no longer in heading hold mode? is this correct? i see some pretty low numbers being thrown out here for gains. Thanks for any input.

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02-08-2006 04:08 PM  12 years agoPost 11
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

Running newer tail assy, 9650/401 in DS mode...No sign of any wag in any flight regime, gain at 53%...Using plastic tail blades, new carbons are too fragile imho..Not a 90 tail, but these things are too small and shouldn't fly at all, let alone 3D!!
Smooth mechanics are the secret to the tail holding, and although I've said if far too many time on this forum, the Spektrum radio cures a lot of the funny little wags and twiches...

John.

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02-08-2006 04:10 PM  12 years agoPost 12
Ezra

rrApprentice

Blue Mountain Beach, FL

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Thanks, I'll give it a try & let you know.

Alan

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02-08-2006 04:11 PM  12 years agoPost 13
Drunk Monk

rrProfessor

Preston, UK

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I have the 9ch radio and my understanding is that below 50% you are no longer in heading hold mode?
When people quote gains, they are quoting actual gains the gyro is set too not % set in the radio as they are very different between JR and Futaba.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....

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02-08-2006 11:19 PM  12 years agoPost 14
steph280

rrElite Veteran

Irvine, California

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gain values are all relative to the mechanical setup. You can move the linkage to inner most hole and run higher gain, or outer most hole and run lower gain.

I've always wondered why the tail blade grips on 3DMP are designed with the notch, and looks like this post explained the best. Apparently the centrifugal force exerted on blade arms are making the servo work overtime, and the notch is used to offset this effect:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476206

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02-08-2006 11:50 PM  12 years agoPost 15
Rmac41

rrApprentice

Stockbridge,Ga

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Right steph.
Because of that centrifical force placed on the pitch horns,
we have to run high torque servos.
to check this out ,take the tail blades off, disconnect the linkage, and then spool it up. with you finger work the linkage ball back & forth, you`ll be amazed at how much force it takes.
Centrifically balanced blade grips would be in order here.
How else can we fly 90 sized nitro`s with a 9253... 28 oz. servo?
I know most are flying 90`s with newer more powerful servos,
but i`m still happy with my 401/9253. and I can`t even get my SE
to hold a hover with an 8 oz servo, I have to have an hs81 36 0z torque, and I can`t make the tail happy with it.
Its always working too hard.
Sorry did`nt mean to run so long.
Just my thoughts

Rick McCullough < Stockbridge, Ga.>

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02-09-2006 05:27 AM  12 years agoPost 16
masa

rrNovice

Japan

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FUTABA of Japan is said so.
S9650 is not a servo designed for rudder.
However, the problem is not in use in the DS mode.
When the servo horn is too long, it is likely to become overreaction.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475657

In my case(9650/GY401/S-BEC6V)::::
When the hole of the attached servo horn was used, sensitivity was 40-50%.
I made new hole(length of 6-6.5mm)
, therefore sensitivity went up to 65% or more.

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02-09-2006 05:37 AM  12 years agoPost 17
ChrisT88

rrVeteran

FL

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Yeah, theres no problem using digital servo mode performance-wise. I'm just concerned about the servo longevity. Maybe we can contact Futaba and get their position?


Here are some pictures of how I mount the 9650's

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02-09-2006 07:03 AM  12 years agoPost 18
masa

rrNovice

Japan

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Because S9650 is being designed by the high response system for the car, it might be unquestionable for basic durability.

It was said that FUTABA had to note generation of heat of the servo when it used S9650 for rudder.

Therefore, there was advice about the length of the servo horn.
A short servo horn suppresses generation of heat.

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02-09-2006 07:18 AM  12 years agoPost 19
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

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I have heard from very experienced and able pilots that running the 9650 on a 6v bec does wonders. In my most recent build I will be running a 6V park bec as well to try this. On my current flying rex I run my 9650 in DS mode and I found it to have a much nicer feel than none. It did make a noticeable difference in flight imho of course.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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02-09-2006 10:50 AM  12 years agoPost 20
Paul_C

rrVeteran

Limpopo, South Africa

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Quite right about the 6v. Putting the 9650 on my Trex gave me a solid tail like no other servo did, running a separate 6v BEC for the gyro and servo allowed me to increase the gain further, providing a noticeable (and much appreciated) improvement in the response, feel, and smoothness of the tail.

Pushrod is about 1cm out, running DS mode, servo remains cool.

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