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HomeAircraftHelicopterKyosho Caliber/Quest Neo-Caliber series › Cal 30 - Only Need Fixed Plate for CCPM?
02-06-2006 06:22 PM  12 years agoPost 1
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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My Caliber 30 is set up with the sliding tray for mechanical CCPM. I purchased some spare parts, and one of the packages came with the fixed servo tray.

So I was curious, can I set up my Caliber 30 with a 120 deg Swash now that I have the fixed tray? Do I need anything else like different ball links to set up for eCCPM?

This bird is used and has always had some slop in the head. New servos helped, but I was wondering if, with no other changes, will going to the fixed servo tray help eliminate some of the slop. I can see slop in the moving tray, so I would think this change must be able to improve things.

And yes, my radio is capable of 120 deg swash.

Thanks for your help.
Rockohaulic

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02-06-2006 06:36 PM  12 years agoPost 2
slow

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San Diego, CA

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Nope, the fixed tray wont help you get rid of the slop in the head, nor the flexing of the servo tray.

The head is easy to fix though. It's usually the swashplate. Separate it, sand down the lower part until the brass "ball" is slop free, but still free to move in it.

The flexing of the servo tray is easily fixed with a servo tray stiffener (who would have though?). It's basically two pushrods and some ball-links. Available from wherever you get your other Kyosho parts for a very resonable price (compared to some of their other upgrades)

/James

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02-08-2006 05:58 PM  12 years agoPost 3
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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James,

So for the swashplate, you sand down the top of the lower part (the surface that mates with the upper part) ??

Thanks,
Rockohaulic

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02-08-2006 07:59 PM  12 years agoPost 4
slow

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San Diego, CA

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Yep, the top of the lower part.

Just take it easy. If the brass ball doesn't swivel smoothly in it, you'll get more problems than you're trying to fix.

/James

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02-09-2006 04:29 AM  12 years agoPost 5
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Be careful not to remove too much material, you'll end up putting stress on the flange on the bottom end of the insert that could cause it to fail. Sand a little, check a lot.

All in all, the swashplate slop isn't all that bad. The flex in the servo tray isn't all that bad either. Fixing both is not a bad idea, but not necessarily something that MUST be done.

When you switch over to the CCPM mix, make sure you move the balls on the three bellcranks that connect between the servo and the swash. The balls move to the holes closer to the pivot point of the bellcranks. The bellcranks also move rearward to the other set of bosses that are on the side frames.

Proper location of balls and bellcranks shown in this pic:

The bellcranks are also shown in the correct position for zero degrees pitch.

Servo position for zero degrees pitch:

MR head shown at zero degree pitch:

MR mast links and levers at zero degrees:

The swashplate is in the center of its mechanical travel at zero degrees.

Dave

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02-09-2006 06:12 PM  12 years agoPost 6
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Hi Dave!

I had a hardcopy of your 120 Deg instructions out last night as I worked on my helicopter! Very helpful! I was able to get the swash doing everything correctly without pulling my hair out!

The one thing that didn't work was the servo arms. I went to the hobby shop and bought some 4 arm servo arms. With the TX sticks in center position, and with no trim or subtrim, I tried to find a position that gave me the 90 deg. But none of the 4 positions would work! In fact, they all seemed about the same, so I had to use subtrim to align them. Where did you get your servo arms that had different positions so you could choose the best??

Anyway, I set Ch6 Pit setting in the SWAH menu to -75 (vs the default -70) to increase the range of my collective. With the 3 servos aligned at 90 deg, the blade pitch measures 0 deg. However, I am getting much more positive pitch than negative. It currently measures +14 deg and -6 deg.

I played with the EPA (End Point Adjustment) just out of curiosity, and I was able to get the negative to -9 deg.

Now the Caliber does not have adjustable links, so how do I “center the swashplate” as you say in the middle of it’s travel?? Or do I really want to since my pitch is zero with the throttle/collective stick in center position?

And if I adjust the pitch rods to equal out the pitch travel, then at throttle/collective stick center, the pitch will be negative & not zero. That’s a bad thing right?

So what should I do???

Thanks for your help,
Rockohaulic

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02-10-2006 04:41 AM  12 years agoPost 7
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Rock --

What servos are you using?

-----

The servo arms I'm using are the standard JR 4-arm type. Two long arms, and two shorter ones. The servos are JR 537 and DS537. The arms just fit on these servos such that the long arms are perpendicular to the long sides of the servos at neutral. They're nothing special. Futaba servos generally have a similar feature, and there is one position where they fit "juuuussssssst right".

-----

I spent the last couple of hours making various measurements on one of my Calibers. First, the top of the radius block is 14 mm below the MR hub. The Caliber manual shows this dimension at 13.5 mm. Check this dimension on your machine.

Next, I disconnected the three links supporting the swashplate. I moved the swashplate as far down as it would go, and made a mark (with a Sharpie marker) on the MR shaft at the top of the brass swash ball. Next, I moved the swash all the way up until the washout block bumped into the radius block. I made a second mark on the MR shaft at the top of the swash ball.

The two marks give me the overall swashplate vertical travel. I measured it, the swashplate moves up and down a total of 25 mm.

Next, I reconnected the links supporting the swash, set my TX pitch curve to a 0 to 100% linear curve, then set the collective stick at midrange. I checked the display on my JR8103 to verify that the stick was indeed at its middle (pitch trim also set to 0). I made a third mark on the MR shaft using the Sharpie. This third mark was 12.5 mm above the lower mark, and 12.5 mm below the upper mark -- in the center of its travel.

Next, I measured the blade pitch at this setting. It is zero degrees. The pitch links on the MR grips are adjusted so that the ends of the plastic links are 2 mm apart. [edit] This makes the pitch links about 26 mm center to center. [end edit]

The links I'm using are the stock Caliber links. The servos are centered as in the pictures. The bellcranks are as shown in the pics as well.

When I had the links supporting the swash disconnected, I measured the overall pitch range possible with this heli. I found that this particular heli is capable of +15 degrees, and -15 degrees pitch if I were to allow the swash to go stop-to-stop.

-----

I asked about the servos you're using since with fixed pushrod lengths, the only variable in the whole setup is the placement of the center of the servo output shaft with respect to its mounting holes. This dimension is the critical factor in getting the swash centered using the fixed pushrods.

The Caliber is probably designed around the Futaba S3003 servo. I looked at the Futaba website, tracked down a 3-view of the 3003 with dimensions, and calculated that the center of the output shaft is about 14.75 mm from the center of the mounting holes that are closest to the shaft. In the JR 537's I'm using, this dimension is 14 mm. A slight difference.

-----

You might try doing a similar experiment -- find out the overall travel of your swashplate, then set it in the mechanical middle of its travel (leave the pushrods disconnected at the servo) With the swash centered and level, find out where the servo pushrods think the servo arm should be. The Sharpie marker lines on the MR shaft come in handy for this procedure.

You might also want to put the swash in its midpoint and see if you can tweak the blade pitch to zero degrees (the only adjustment here is the pitch links at the MR grips). If you can, do so. Then, using your pitch gauge see what kind of overall pitch range you can get from your setup mechanically.

This should tell you where your problem is. Unfortunately, you may have to make some new pushrods. This isn't all bad, as the stock pushrods -- especially the long ones that hook up to the servos are a bit springy. I think Chris at RC Heliworks can fix you up with a set of adjustable pushrods for the Caliber. I should probably change out my stock links for the RC Heliworks links (http://www.caliber30.com) -- but with a bunch of helis and various things I want to try with them, funds are not unlimited! Feeding a bunch of helis is almost like feeding a bunch of teen-agers!

-----

One other thought, a long-shot, but worth checking out -- is your MR shaft upside down? The holes at both ends are not the same distance from the ends. The hole that is closest to the end of the MR shaft goes up (into the hub). The hole that is farthest from its end goes down, into the drive gear. [edit] I've never put one in upside-down, and don't know if it would be one of those things that could even go un-noticed as it can in other helis, but as I said, it's something to check out. [end edit]

-----

The mechanical setup will greatly influence how well your heli performs and can make the difference between a heli that flies, and a heli that flies great. The stock links on the Caliber 30 tend to force you to compromise, but those adjustable links can get around that.

-----

You asked yesterday about the different swash mix numbers, and asked if they need to be the same. They don't but just to let you know, if you change the aileron or elevator swash mix numbers, the end result shows up in the overall amount of cyclic pitch you can get (not collective -- that number is the result of the Pitch setting in the swash menu).

Hope this clears up some things, and gives you a way to get the collective in your heli working at its best.

Dave

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02-10-2006 05:59 PM  12 years agoPost 8
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Thanks for the reply Dave,

Very nice. Well, I did go to the hobby shop last night and the owner and I looked at a Futaba servo. It looks like for the Futaba servo you could get at least 2 different positions with the servo arms. We were able to turn the spline all the way in one direction, and get the servo arm to fit at the 90 deg position. We also looked at the JR servos and saw their unique servo arms and agreed you would probably be able to do the same thing.

Unfortunately I am using Hitec 635 servos, and apparently they don't have this feature.

After removing my servo arms and placing them in the closest position, I had to set the subtrims in the 20's to get them to align.

Anyway, I did find one more problem after re-reading your post last night. I have all the links and bellcranks in the correct position except one - the center servo link was still attached to it's bellcrank in the upper hole. I moved the ball to the lower hole last night.

With the EPA's for the 3 servos set at 125, I was able to get the negative pitch to -11 deg. The pitch is zero with the 3 servo arms centered (and TX sticks in center position). I adjusted the 5th point of my pitch curve on the TX to 85 and that gave me +11 deg positive pitch. I'm happy with this setup.

I'm going to try flying it in this setup.

I think my 2 options are as follows if I want to chase this down further. Get the adjustable ball links as you said. Or replace the servos with Futaba or JR servos, align the arms correctly, and remove the subtrims.

Thanks again for your help.

Rockohaulic

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02-10-2006 06:57 PM  12 years agoPost 9
Caliber1

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Fort Worth, TX

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and remove the subtrims
There is nothing wrong with using the sub trims in the radio to correctly position your swash plate as long as they are not excessive. As you know, the manual instructs the user to do so, most likely due to the fixed control rods. I don't think that your heli is going to fly bad because of the subtrims, just part of setup with bellcrank limitations. Of course if you don't like it, or feel uncomfortable with it, you have other options as you stated. I think that you will find it troublesome to have 11 degrees of pitch at 85. Mine is set up for 9 degrees at 90. Let us know how it flies.

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02-10-2006 10:08 PM  12 years agoPost 10
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Is 20 something excessive? I'm assuming it's a percentage, and therefore I am losing 20 percent throw in that direction. Since the EPA is set to 125 in that direction, I guess I am making it up with the EPA.

Does that sound about right?

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02-10-2006 11:51 PM  12 years agoPost 11
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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I wouldn't think 20 is that far out of line. It's not a great amount.

Good luck, let us know how it trims out.

Dave

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02-10-2006 11:51 PM  12 years agoPost 12
Caliber1

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Fort Worth, TX

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What radio, (TX) are you using? For my radio, JR XP8103, the subtrim is +/- 125% which is +/- 30 degrees servo travel. So in your instance, 20% works out to 4.8 degrees of servo travel. The note out of the manual says "Do not use excessive sub-trim adjustments as it is possible to overrun your servo's maximum travel." So as long as you are not overrunning your servo's maximum travel, you should be fine. My opinion is that 20%, or 4.8 degrees is modest and should present no problem. In a perfect world, 0% sub-trim would be nice. I don't think it is enough to start replacing servos or going to adjustable rods. Will be interesting to hear what the RR Kyosho community has to say.

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02-11-2006 03:15 AM  12 years agoPost 13
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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The shaft on the Hitec 635 appears to be in about the same place (14 mm) relative to the Futaba 3003 and JR 537s (I looked at the 635 data sheet and from the dimensions given, it's easy to measure and calculate the location of the shaft from them). There's no reason to replace the servos and the stock pushrods ought to work just fine. I think you're on the right track. It sounds like you've gotten the pitch stuff figured out and the sub trim value is negligible. Go fly.

Dave

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02-13-2006 05:21 PM  12 years agoPost 14
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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OK, Here's an interesting one.

After spending far too much time to align the 3 servos for eCCPM, we went out and flew the Caliber 30 this weekend. At first she flew fine, the only thing I noticed was that I felt she responded a bit slower than normal. THis was opposaite to what I expected. Because the servos don't have to work as hard, I thought it would respond quicker.

Anyway, about halfway through the day my girlfrind Mandy was having a hard time with it. We refueled it and I had a go at it. Wow! Something was wrong! She was all over the place in a hover. Pitch was too fast compared to the roll. I had one of the more experienced guys try her out. He said the same thing.

We shut her down and removed the canopy. With the sticks at neutral, all three servos were now completely out of alignment!! These anolog Hitec 635 servos had drifted off of there original center position!
What's up with that??

So we realigned them with the subtrim and she flew fine.

So I think I wasted too much time trying to get them aligned with different servo arms and everything else I did when she is just going to drift out of alignment like that.

Do the coreless Futaba 9202 servos hold center better than that???

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02-13-2006 07:02 PM  12 years agoPost 15
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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It's not the heli that's making the servos do what they did.

Do the new arms that you got actually fit the servo shaft? Is there any chance they slipped from their original position under load?

What transmitter? Obvious question -- did you have the right model selected? Was there a large temperature difference between inside when you set it up, and outside when you flew? New radio, or one that's been around the block?

After you got back home and the heli and TX were inside, did the servos drift yet again?

It's very odd for servos to shift a neutral point, especially three at once, unless the transmitter has a problem, which could affect all three.

Does your transmitter remember trim settings for each of the different flight modes, and you had set everything to neutral in the mode you set the heli up in, but forgot to zero out the trims in the remaining modes?

Did the TR and throttle servo stay put, or did they move, too?

Dave

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02-13-2006 07:52 PM  12 years agoPost 16
Rockohaulic

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I’ll check the arms, but to be honest I think they fit tight and I don’t believe they slipped.

It’s a Hitec Optic 6 radio. It’s a new radio. Good question on the model, but it was and had to be on the right model because that is the only 120 deg swash model programmed into the TX.

Negligible on the temp difference. And only flew in normal mode. But I will check the TX and make sure we were flying it in normal mode!

The TR servo is a digital Futaba 9250, so I would not expect it to drift. I did not check the servo for throttle. It is the original servo that I’ve been flying with for months. I only replaced the 3 servos in the new fixed tray with Hitec 545BB servos for the 120 deg swash upgrade.

Thanks for your help.

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02-15-2006 06:44 PM  12 years agoPost 17
Fearless Freep

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Black Diamond, WA

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I had the problem with the tray flexing, so I just got out my ball link reamer/polisher, and with about a half hour worth of farting around, the links slid easily on the balls (no hang), and I noticed my tray didn't flex anymore at all, at least on the stand.

I was amazed, and took it out for a tank of gas before it got too dark to see, and that baby was ultra responsive to boot! Made it even funner. (I luv my Caliber so)

I don't think I've single-handedly cured the tray flex issue, but it really helped.

Pete

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02-16-2006 05:57 AM  12 years agoPost 18
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Fearless, Rocks' talking a whole different animal here. He's not talking about tray flexing, he's somehow had his three cyclic servos change their centering....indeed an odd and rare happening.

Dave

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