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HomeAircraftHelicopterKyosho Caliber/Quest Neo-Caliber series › caliber 30, Os 32 --> no power?
02-06-2006 05:03 PM  12 years agoPost 1
jfint

rrApprentice

Simi Valley, CA

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OK so I tried to maiden my caliber 30 this weekend, it has an OS 32 in it, I was running 15% fuel. I started off with the high speed needle 2.5 turns out, and I think it was at about 2 when I quite trying. The bottom line was the thing would barely get off the ground. Any pitch at all would bring the headspeed down too a point wehere it was not flyable. When it was in the3 air it was shaky and any cyclic input dam near sent it falling sideways. I had no damage thankfully my trex time has kept my stick reflexes pretty quick.

from my limited experience with glow engines I have observed that 2 turns out on that needle seems to be a good ballpark start, but this just seemed to not be correct here. Because of the orientation of the motor are helicopters generally still very rich at 2 turns out? I know this motor should have enough power, but I deffinately didn't see that, with no pitch the rpms seem great, soon as I feed in a little bit of pitch I get nothing.

Does the engine not being lean enough sound like the problem? I'm so used to the power just being there with my electric that this is very frustrating. I didn't have this problem settign up a freinds raptor 50, but I'm thinking thats just because its A 50, is that right?

Oh I should say that at flat pitch I'm at about 90% throttle, and I go up too 100% as I feed in pitch, still no power. And I had it set up for +10 degrees to -10 degrees of pitch, so nothing crazy there.

Thanks for any advice
Josh

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02-06-2006 05:38 PM  12 years agoPost 2
tnbulldog

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Cookeville, TN

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You do not mention the low-end needle setting.
If this is way out, it will definetely affect the power output of the motor.
Get the low-end needle to the factory setting and then 2 turns out on the high-end needle will get you in the ballpark.
You should be hovering at approx. 75% throttle.

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02-06-2006 06:19 PM  12 years agoPost 3
jfint

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Simi Valley, CA

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I didn't adjust the low needle because the heli was hovered gtwice by the person i got it from(an aquentence, who knows more about them than me) I can't really contact this guy anymore though because I moved. Anyhow, i was operasting under the assumption that low was correct based on this info. He had the engine out and the high needle was at like 1/2 turn out, so I re-adjusted that thinking it was unreasonable and must have been changed on accident. The way the engine transition really nicely makes me think the low end is pretty good also.

I'll check out where it is versus the factory setting tonight though.

Thanks

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02-07-2006 01:56 AM  12 years agoPost 4
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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The 32 will fly the Caliber just fine. It is not, however, sufficient to just tweak the main needle to fly. The low speed needle is effective up to about 75-80% throttle opening, and its setting interacts greatly with the main needle.

15% nitro is just fine, as well.

If you just mess with the main needle, you will end up with a very lean motor, you'll burn it up, and have a pretty bad day of flying all around.

Before you go any further, make sure your carburetor looks like the one on the bottom in this picture...a 20C carb:

If it looks like the one on top, you'll have nothing but trouble.

With that out of the way, set the main and low speed needle per the manual's recommended settings. Main needle is opened one-and-a-half turns. The idle needle is screwed out such that the "shoulder" on the part that moves in and out when you adjust it using a screwdriver is flush with the rotating barrel of the carb.

Start the motor. If it won't idle reliably, DON'T mess with the needles, open the throttle up a bit using the trim tab.

Next, bring the throttle up to the point where the heli is JUST getting Light -- almost, but not quite airborne. If the motor sputters and blubbers a lot, and puts out lots of smoke as you transition from the idle setting to the near-hover position, the low speed needle is too rich, and must be turned Clockwise a bit -- turn it about 30 degrees each time you tweak this needle using a small screwdriver. If, when you go from idle to the near-hover point, the motor just quits, the low-speed setting is too lean. You need to turn the low-speed needle Counter Clockwise (again, about 30 degrees each time). Work on the low-speed needle until you can go from idle to the near hover state with a smooth, even transition with no tendency to blubber and spit, or just stop cold.

Next, bring the helicopter to a hover. Check the throttle response around the hover point. If the motor is rich -- lots of smoke, it sputters and spits, turn the main needle CW a couple of clicks. If, on the other hand, the motor hesitates a bit (with little smoke) before speeding up, you're lean, and need to turn the main needle Counter Clockwise a couple of clicks. Tweak the main needle to get a decent mid-range throttle response, keeping it a bit on the rich side for now.

Go back to idle, let the heli sit for 10-15 seconds, then goose the throttle up to the near-hover point. Recheck and make minor adjustments to the low-speed needle at this time to maintain a good healthy transition from idle to hovering.

Recheck the main needle setting around the hover point again, make slight adjustments as necessary, staying a bit on the rich side.

Note that the two needles are interacting, adjusting one will affect the other's in this range.

Once you get the transition from idle to hover working well, and have a good engine response around its midrange, open it up and see how the motor responds in normal forward flight. If the motor is rich -- lots of smoke, bogs easily, and doesn't have a lot of power, and the heli lacks acceleration, you need to lean the main needle a couple of clicks (turn CW). If the motor, on the other hand is screaming and putting out little smoke, and seems to lose power when you pull "up" you need to richen the main needle a couple of clicks (turn CCW).

After you're done tweaking the main needle for the top end, go back and recheck the idle, the idle to hover transition (adjusting the low speed needle if necessary), the midrange, and the top end. Make small adjustments in the high speed needle as required, always checking how it's affected the low speed setting (and vice versa).

This sounds a bit time consuming and tedious. In practice, you can usually get it done in a tank or two of flying the heli around. Whatever you do, don't go overlean (easy to do with the 32). You'll fry the piston and liner very quickly if not careful.

The entire procedure can be found here:

http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english...sx-h_series.pdf

Initial needle adjustments on pages 12 - 13, needle adjustment procedure on pages 14-17, with a flowchart on page 19.

You're going to end up with the high-speed needle less than one turn open, somewhere in the 80-90% of one turn range.

The 32 should work fine with up to 9 or 10 degrees pitch. Anything more it will be struggling.

If you don't have a Caliber manual -- download these ZIP files:

http://runryder.com/gallery/4171/Caliber30MM0001.zip
http://runryder.com/gallery/4171/Caliber30IM.zip

...they contain the assembly and maintenance manuals. The assembly manual has some good suggested pitch curves for various flight modes in it.


Dave

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02-07-2006 05:27 AM  12 years agoPost 5
X34

rrNovice

Singapore

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Double check the linearity of the throttle openning before tuning the engine.

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02-07-2006 09:56 PM  12 years agoPost 6
rocknrube7

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London, Ontario Canada

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Revving engine up with throttle
Can u quickly throttle up to max and back down to idle without hurting the engine? To test the rich and lean settings of the engine. Of course, while holding onto the main rotors.

A good day of flying is when you land safely....See ya in the skies!

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02-07-2006 11:52 PM  12 years agoPost 7
jfint

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Simi Valley, CA

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The engine seems to be transitioning quite nicely, so the low mixute needle should at least be ballpark, A guy at the hobby shop mentioned that the top end getting burnt out can be common with these motors, I won't have a chance to try again until the weekendd, so I might disasemble it and look at this. I figure if I rule out that possibility then thats great, if I find the top end of the sleave burnt out, then I know whats wrong.

I was also told that I should be able to hover around with this thing with the main needle at 3 turns out, which points to the engine being junk. This is a guy who hs been teaching RC heli Flying school for many years now. Some of the things he said are fairly diffferent from what I have heard from other "knowledgeable people" in the past though so I'm not sure what to believe.

Thanks for all the input, especially Dave.

Now i partially remember why I was doing electrics only, arrg.

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02-08-2006 01:00 AM  12 years agoPost 8
Caliber1

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Fort Worth, TX

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Can u quickly throttle up to max and back down to idle without hurting the engine? To test the rich and lean settings of the engine. Of course, while holding onto the main rotors.

I wouldn't advise this... It's unsafe and hard on your clutch! Besides, going up and down quickly isn't going to reveal much on your mixture settings. You need to be running steady state power.

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02-08-2006 01:43 AM  12 years agoPost 9
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I was also told that I should be able to hover around with this thing with the main needle at 3 turns out
Absolutely NOT. The motor will barely RUN at three turns out. Even at the factory recommended 1.5 turns out for starting from scratch, that is an extremely rich setting.

If you DID manage to hover at three turns out, the headspeed would probably be in the 1200 - 1400 RPM range, and the heli would be wobbling so bad that you'd think it was going to fling itself apart. Not only will the wobbles most likely be present, at such a low head speed, the heli would react very sluggish on the controls and just be a pain in the a$$ to keep in the air, and under control. In addition to lacking proper cyclic authority and stability, the tail rotor will drive you nuts with the motor being that rich.

The "guy teaching the RC Heli flying school" is doing you a disservice to tell you to try to hover ANY helicopter THAT rich. If his advice is consistently radically different from stuff you're hearing elsewhere from multiple experienced sources, you may want to wonder about his credentials. (True, you need to keep the BS filter operating full-time here on RR and elsewhere to separate the useful from the pure nonsense, but frankly, a lot of different people telling you the same thing should be a clue that they are probably correct).

Further, the OS 32 SX-H is an ABC motor (actually ABN construction) and running it at three turns rich while hovering will not allow it to come up to the proper temperature to actually break-in if it were a new motor. Further, running an ABC/ABN motor that rich will actually SHORTEN its useful lifespan due to improper break-in procedures.

-----

The "top end" doesn't get "burnt out". If you run the OS 32 SX-H too lean, you end up scoring the piston skirt very badly. The excess heat damages the piston, usually on the exhaust-port side. It loses its compression seal and the motor runs like crap.

A new piston and cylinder (matched set) sells for about $50, roughly half the cost of a new 32 SX-H.

-----

Rocknrube --

Holding the head stationary while romping on full throttle is what is commonly called a "hot start" and is a good way to toast your clutch lining, and more importantly, the clutch shoes (heating them up to the point where the steel loses its temper) and you end up buying a whole new clutch -- shoes, bell, and lining.

It's also a bad idea because if the head gets away from you -- you are in serious danger of getting whacked hard by your rotors. A whack in the ribs is not my idea of flying fun.

Follow the manufacturer's procedure. It's a bit more time consuming, but in the grand scheme is a few minutes in what should be many long hours of service from your motor.

Dave

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02-08-2006 01:57 AM  12 years agoPost 10
jfint

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Simi Valley, CA

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Thanks, Dave I feel better, what I was talking about on the top end was the piston being able to travle clear up through the sleave simply by sushing in by hand. I think thats the same thing your describing. I think I'll just go with your suggestion, an OS manual hasn't steered me wrong yet! Now on top of this I'm going to have to send my radio in for an update soon, and some checks, its a hitec eclipse 7, long story, but it will be going back to hitec for a couple weeks. I'm goign to try to get this in the air before it goes back and I can't try anything at all.(don't worry its still trustworthy, just really old program) I have a Prism 7 that should keep a plank or two in the air, but not the helis. Thanks for all the advice, I'm confident it will fly this weekend.

Josh

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02-08-2006 05:21 AM  12 years agoPost 11
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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jfint --

The tendency that most people have when tuning the OS 32 SX-H is to first try to get a good, low-rpm idle with a great transition to mid-range using just the low-speed needle. They ignore using the throttle trim tab to keep the idle reliable. What happens is that usually this results in a motor that idles real well, transitions to mid-range great, and has great power output. But at about 3/4 throttle and above, the motor seems to drop off quickly in its power output, as if the high-speed needle is too rich. They then tweak the high-speed needle to correct that last 25% of throttle in an attempt to get the top-end running great. This results in leaning out the motor in that first 75% of throttle range, and a fairly lean last 25% of throttle.

You get away with this arrangement for a few flights, but the darn engine just seems to be a bit finicky, doesn't feel right in the air, and quits lean as the level of fuel in the tank goes down. Do this a couple of times, and you end up with innards that look like this:

The exhaust side of the piston skirt and crown begin to score and gall (above)

while the intake side stays nice and pristine (above).

The exhaust port side of the cylinder from the top of the ports up to the top of the cylinder also score and gall (above)

and again, the intake side of the cylinder stays unblemished (above).

-----

The interaction between the two needles can't be overstressed. I believe that's why the OS manual specifies a process that first addresses a reliable idle using the trim tab on the transmitter to open up the throttle barrel a bit, followed by careful adjustment of the low-speed needle (all the way up to hovering and non-translational flight). It's also why they recommend leaving the low-speed adjustment a bit on the rich side. If you go ahead and try to set the idle speed using the low-speed needle (and not the throttle trim), this first half of the process puts you in a hole when you go to tweak the top-end, as you're already too lean over most of the throttle range.

The next step in the adjustment process goes ahead and works on that last 25% of the throttle opening. By leaning out the top end with the low-speed needle still a bit rich, this step in the procedure not only addresses the top-end performance, but takes care eventually of the rich setting of the low-speed needle.

The fact that the two needles overlap and interact is also why OS tells you to go back and check the low-speed needle after adjusting the high-speed needle.

-----

Those pics were taken a few years back, and that particular piston/cylinder set has a twin. I fried two sets of pistons/cylinders in less than a couple of weeks because I ignored the interaction of the two needles. That's also how I know a new set costs $50.00! The OS32 tuning lesson cost me a little over $100. The current cylinder and piston (third time's a charm) has been running in that same Caliber for about two seasons now, and is powering my experiment in aerial video quite handily.

It's the one on the left, and has about an extra pound of weight over the other two Calibers. The little 32 and the Caliber haul this load around, even last summer as I was testing a video downlink on an evening when it was 101 degrees out. Plenty of power, and no overheating. I learned my lesson the expensive way.

-----

Once you lose that seal at top dead center by screwing up the piston with a lean run, the only way back is a new piston and cylinder.

Dave

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02-08-2006 04:23 PM  12 years agoPost 12
jfint

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Simi Valley, CA

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Dave- Thanks for all the help. I'll post here about how it goes saturday morning. Also, we'll see if these Santa Anna winds die down enough to fly, I'll be REALLY frustrated if they don't, heheheh.

Josh

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02-12-2006 12:24 AM  12 years agoPost 13
jfint

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Simi Valley, CA

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Well it flew, although there is something still amiss, because its more twichy on cyclic thatn my trex and that makes no sense at all. Also, long story shrot when I was cleaning out my fuel lines at the end of the day I had a hot start due to being on the wrong model on my radio. Anyhow the clutch liner came off and it started melthing the plastic in the ball. Guess I gotta order parts for that. But at least I know it flys.

Josh

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02-12-2006 03:34 AM  12 years agoPost 14
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Bummer about the clutch....it's real easy to have the wrong machine selected in your transmitter. Bet that won't happen again.

Can we assume that you at least got the motor problems behind you?


Dave

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02-12-2006 05:24 AM  12 years agoPost 15
jfint

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Simi Valley, CA

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Yes I think I have the motor in good order now, and I'll continue the break in process the way that the manual describes since it only have about 2 tanks through it when I got it.

I know its hard without seeing the heli but have you encountered had one just behave super sensitive? I mean it really felt less stable than my trex, which from everythign I have heard just shouldn't be. I didn't get it tached yet, I plan to do that as soon as the clutch it back in working order. I checked and double checked for any binding in the controls. Do you guys run any exponential on your cyclic controls? I only flew it around for a couple mintues because it just didn't feel like I thought it should.


-Josh

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02-12-2006 05:42 AM  12 years agoPost 16
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I only use expo on the rudder, as the Caliber 30 is pretty touchy on the rudder. The cyclics aren't overly sensitive, I've not seen any reason to run expo.

Is there any chance you can post some pics of your heli and the linkage setup?

Dave

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02-12-2006 06:55 AM  12 years agoPost 17
jfint

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Simi Valley, CA

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yeah I can do it tommorrow, its looking like no flying tommorrow anyway, the santa anna's are coming up.

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HomeAircraftHelicopterKyosho Caliber/Quest Neo-Caliber series › caliber 30, Os 32 --> no power?
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