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HomeAircraftHelicopterAerial Photography and Video › Mark IV Broadcast 360 mount video
02-06-2006 10:18 PM  12 years agoPost 21
Smithprod

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Oklahoma

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Dang, don't tell me I'm the first to be asked not to post! Surely John O.'s been asked!

Brad

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02-06-2006 10:22 PM  12 years agoPost 22
aambrose

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Pana, IL

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This forum is great, but so much voice inflection, joking sarcasm, tongue-in-cheek, etc. is lost in the type. We need a HUGE AP&V meet somewhere besides just a handful of guys here on RR so we can all get to know each other better than just through the keyboard.


Tony

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02-06-2006 10:42 PM  12 years agoPost 23
Smithprod

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Oklahoma

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Tru dat!

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02-07-2006 12:14 AM  12 years agoPost 24
fitenfyr

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Port Orchard, Washington

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Won't make any difference I am still a butt head.

If you notice I tend to use a lot of smiley's. It is my way of injecting a lighter tone into some of the things I type.

John,
Does your mount have the GMI mods? In other words the shocks and self leveling or are you still using the roll servo?
The reason I asked is that the video was cocked to screen right the whole time.
No vibe issues though so you have it isolated well at least.

Ok I have to also ad that this video also shows an isolated area with apparently limited outs.
What was your escape plan if something went wrong?
Not picking, but these are the kinds of things we should be thinking about and be prepared to explain if asked by "the man".

There was a small suggested saftey list on RCAPA and the not flying over vehicles part was bantered back and forth. In the end I think it was dropped.

You guys feel free to start that kind of stuff again on there.
The RCAPA forum has been kind of dead lately. Just that time of year I think and not much has been happening in D.C.

Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...

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02-07-2006 12:27 AM  12 years agoPost 25
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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Ok, I had my case of bud,
So is this some smooth video or what??
I was really getting discourged, because I was having so much trouble getting some vib's out of my heli, and It was like taking one step forward and two back, but I finially figured it out.. and you won't belive what the problem was, It was the weights in my paddles.. I had them weighted with all the weight that came with them, thinking that would help smooth things out, So I took all the weight out and checked the balance again, and whaaaallllaaa, things got a whole lot better,, I know, I still have alot to do and LEARN, but I think I have things going my way,, What I'm trying to get to, is being able to zoom in on thing and still have very smooth video,, And if any of you out there have ever tried to zoom in on things, Well you know what I'm talking about.. Well hopefully we get to shoot the second of four takes on the Southern Plains Reasearch Center tomorrow,, They want video of the flooring before the steel goes up.. Again,, Thank YOU ALL for all your help,, And I promise I will behave in a professional manner from this point on,

Brad, I'm looking forward to meeting with you in person, and getting to fly with you someday,, even if it just for FUN,,

Thanks Guy's for all your input.. XGM/XGW

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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02-07-2006 12:35 AM  12 years agoPost 26
Smithprod

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Oklahoma

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John, you and I should meet somewhere to fly and lie. Heck, I think you're about three hours from me! BTW, good job on the video. Chasing vibration can drive a man to drinking!

Brad

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02-07-2006 12:57 AM  12 years agoPost 27
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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Jason,, I have a Broadcast 360 mount with the New Mark IV gimble, that has, Roll, Tilt, and Pan,, It has Four shocks, to help isolate the gimble,, I have two 401 gyro's, one on tilt, and one on roll,, The gryo's are great, but not the HOLY GRAIL, They do have there problems..
To answer the question about, the tilt in the video, This was the first time my friend had touch a transmitter,, So he was having some trouble,, But I think I got him hook,,

Now for the question about safty,, We had 2 guy's TRYING to stop traffic, I was keeping the heli in the road, so that if something happened I could just dump it in the road,, That was the plan,, I was TRULY trying to be as SAFE as possible,, not just flying for a whim,, or the heck of it,, but I did want to see if the video was any smoother than it was earlier that morning,, I didn't have enought sunlight to go the field to fly, its 15 miles away from my house, that is uselly where I fly to try things out,,

Again thanks guy for your input,, It sure helps me out.. and I need all the help I can get,, XGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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02-07-2006 01:01 AM  12 years agoPost 28
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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Thanks Brad,, That means alot to me comming from you.. Yep only 3 hours away,, Hopefully I can get some free time soon, and come up to meet and fly with you,, I think there is a heli Fun Fly in Witchita, Later this month,that we are planning to make,, Mabe on Sunday I could slip down, for a couple of hours,, If nothing else, just to get to meet you in person.. XGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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02-07-2006 01:46 AM  12 years agoPost 29
fitenfyr

rrProfessor

Port Orchard, Washington

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So your mount is still controlling roll by a servo then with a 401?

That explains why it was solid, but cocked to one side.

Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...

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02-07-2006 01:53 AM  12 years agoPost 30
DANNO

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St. Petersburg, Florida

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wow this looks like its taking a turn in a positive direction....congrats guys!

anyway, i dig the zoom....

Dan

www.skypiximaging.com

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02-07-2006 01:58 AM  12 years agoPost 31
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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Yes that is right,, is has a modified 360 servo, hooked up to a 401 gryo,, The gyro's are great but do build up some drift, I havent been able to get that part out yet, and maybe I never will.. but It sure has been alot of fun, well maybe not alot of fun, but it sure has been interesting,, XGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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02-07-2006 02:48 AM  12 years agoPost 32
AirFoil Aerial Systems

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IL.

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Hey John this may not help in what you are doing as I think without the KS2 gyro you will always have vibration issues. Now I've done a ton of R&D we use 360 servo's but I don't think you do but either way it can be setup.
We made a delay circuit about a 1/2 oz. with a variable regulator. We found on the 360 servo's we set the atv's at the speed we wanted say 25% then sub trimmed to the center. Now the delay comes in you rotate the mount and dial the delay in until it does what you need. Now at this point you will see no drifting at all. The gyro setting must stay above 55% and it will work great.

Hope some of this helps.
John

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02-07-2006 03:13 AM  12 years agoPost 33
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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John, Thanks,, I am running 360 degrees modified servos. I can rotate each functions completely around without stopping,, What I'm seeing is after some movement with the gyros, there is some drift, to one side, useully to the right on roll, tilt does it to some degree, but not as bad as the roll, We did try the visions locks in N.M. but couldn't get them lined out right either,, but It might have been something we were doing wrong, Not trying to diss vision lock, it was probably the way we set it up

I don't have my gyro's gain set that high, it won't work with the way we have it set up now,, but I'm all for trying new ideas,,
How about the delay on the gyro's, can that be used??
Do you sell this product?? If so I might be interested in trying some,, I'm still learning so thanks for all your help..
The way it is working out now the camera person still has to fly the mount, to some degree,, maybe thats not a bad deal,, More fun for the camera person,, XGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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02-07-2006 04:45 AM  12 years agoPost 34
FCM

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Surrey, England

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John, I havn't had time to look at your video but I have been investigating the roll issue that has been decribed and may be able to add something to the equation.

I have tested 3 different 401 gyros on my roll axis and all 3 provide differing outputs for a given gain setting.

The best, most equal gyro correction output signal was obtained from a new in box 401. The worst was from a very old much crashed example that puts out left and right corrections that are way out from being equal. This 'old' gyro cannot be used for the roll axis as it creeps after just a couple of corrections making the horizon tilt.

My thoughts are that we may be better served by using a different gyro - one that provides individual left and right correction values so we can 'center' everything up to provide an equal output.

Anyone know if there is a gyro that provides this kind of adjustment?

Paul.

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02-07-2006 04:53 AM  12 years agoPost 35
HawkEyeMedia

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Fort Worth, Texas

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I've been wondering this myself. Is the 601 programmable in this regard?

Mark LaBoyteaux
HawkEyeMedia.com

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02-07-2006 05:44 AM  12 years agoPost 36
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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With the 601 you can adjust the right and left out put,, ??? now thats got me to thinking that maybe I ought to try one on the roll axis, to see if that could be accomplished,, But I'm not for sure if that is the answer,, We need a gyro company, to build us a gyro that doesn't need a center, or home,, I truly think that is the problem with the setup now, is that the gryo never really know where home is so it has no idea where to go,, Man a guy could go crazy trying to work all this out,, but they don't call me Crazy Crotts for nothing,, (oh if forgot, that was years ago, and I'm OLD now..)

Mark good to hear form you,, Your not going to get to have all the fun from now on,, I'm there,,
Are you still useing the duel servos on your mount that you had in NM?? If so are you seeing any drift build up after a couple of min. of flying??
I'm by no means a engineer, but I think it will take a gyro that doesn't need a home to be able to hold a center comand. Any gyro company's want to tackle this problem?? Thanks guy's for all your help and input.. XGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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02-07-2006 06:47 AM  12 years agoPost 37
Wayne Mann

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United States of America

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Guys I think that I can help with this problem. Three weeks ago I designed my own front mount which has tilt, roll, pan and it swings underneath a gymbol with three shocks at 120 degrees. As I was starting this project I was so excited because I wasn't going to use the 401 gyros as I have flown them in helicopters and personally I think they are low grade dog food compared to a 601 or a 611. So I'm working day and night and I get the mount done. I have S9255 servos working everything, lots of power. Then I installed the 601 gyros. I turned the radio on and nothing. The servos never moved. Then it hit me, I remembered that the 601 and the 611 will only work with the S9251 and the S9256 servos. Boy did I feel like a real dumb shi$ at that point.

Anyway back to the drifting problem with the 401. With the Broadcast 360 I noticed the same things. It only has the 401 on tilt, but I turn on the radio and I use the trim to get the pan servo to sit still, but if I bump the stick in either direction slightly the servo will take off drifting that direction. If I flip the duel rate switch it will also change the trim and it will take off drifting. Unfortunately the problem is the cheap 6 channel radio that comes with the mount. I discovered this because I never intended to use this radio as I intend on using 6 meter frequencies for both the mount and the helicopter as I still have both of my Futaba 9Z WC2 radios with 6 meter modules and receivers. Once I pluged the mount servos and gyro into the R149DP and used the 9Z to control it all of the drifting problems stoped. I don't know this for fact, but I doubt very seriously if the 6 channel radio has the same high quality internal pots that the 9Z or the 14MZ has. If this is the case and some of you guys need to test this yourself Jody needs to sell the mount without the radio and receiver and let the buyers supply their own radio.

Some of this could be due to the servos used also as they are fairly low power low end Futaba servos. The S9251 that comes with the 601 has more power than either of the servos that come with the mount. I would ultimately like to use S9255 servos as they have tons of power and a near perfect gear train that doesn't wear out. Please don't think that I am knocking the mount or the equipment that he is selling it with, its just that you guys are trying to make money with this business like I am and if you want to be able to post near flawless video it is going to require a lot more precision out of the radio equipment that's controling the camera.

I am going to be modifying a couple of S9251 servos in the next few days to install in the mount so that I can run the 601 gyros on both tilt and pan. Once I get this up and running I will post the results.

Would anyone like to offer up instructions on what exactly is being done internally to the servos to get them to run in either direction continously? I know that I have to remove the tabs for the mechanical stop, but something is being done to the pots so that the servo will keep going past the dead spot on the pot on both sides.

I think one of the reasons that FlyingCam has such great video quality is the fact that the camera is mounted stationary. From what I can gather it does not have pan or roll. It may have tilt. The camera man has control of the tailrotor, which means the helicopter pilot had better be able to fly at fairly high speeds with the rudder crabbing like crazy.

When we shot our first test footage last weekend our video quality was excellent with one exception. When watching the video it's glass smooth most of the time, but every 5 seconds or so you can see that the camera is going through a little quiver. When I hover the model in front of me I can see it happening. This is coming from running a muffler. It currently has the Hatori muffler on it. Mufflers will not allow an engine to sit at one rpm and drone like a true tuned pipe will. I would love to have one of Don Chapman's old V-Tech pipes for this thing so that I could get the exaust harmonics from the engine to perfectly drone. I called Hanson to get one of his pipes to try, but they do not make a header for a forward facing engine. Anyway the main reason the video quality was exceptional was because I had the camera locked down so that it couldn't move. I have watched a lot of the videos that have been posted here and several videos have been very high quality until the camera operator starts moving the camera around. The movement in the camera is too notchy and I firmly believe that it's because of the servos, gyros and radios that are being used for the most part. I am going to try the high end radio equipment and see if I can produce exceptional video quality while moving the camera around. If I am sucessful I will tell you how I did it. If not I am going to lock the camera down for the most part and learn to fly the helicopter.


Wayne Mann

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02-07-2006 11:58 AM  12 years agoPost 38
FCM

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Surrey, England

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Your thoughts regarding the radios is very interesting Wayne. I am using a PCM JR X-3810 with digital trims and I feel that this is probably the minimum spec. radio that will provide the control neccesary to operate a mount with 401 gyros.

My testing was rudimentary to the extreme - I would select AVCS mode and move the gimble about and see what happened. The old damaged gyro really is shot but I am still using it on my tilt axis as this is the control that is always being adjusted as you shoot (the roll isn't)and I have found that by putting in vast amounts of trim so that the LED starts to blink (meaning it has lost it's neutral setting I think) it stops creeping and stabilises okay. As an aside, I wonder if the 401 'goes off' anyway after a period of time? This might explain some fo the 401 tail out of trim complaints?

The only thing I do to my 360 servos is cut off the stop from the gear (carefully mind - if you don't do a good job it can affect the smooth running of the servo) and remove the pot and re-solder with some fly leads. If you want a non-feedback 360 servo that uses a fixed position pot, then you need to cyno the pot in the null position.

You really do need to run good quality servos on the mount to achieve good smooth motion. I am running a 9202 on my pan and used together with a friction pad, provides just about perfect panning. Best way to test it is to introduce a couple of units of tim and watch the video image as it pans as slow as possible. I am proud to say that my pro video camerman cannot fault it and he has tried real hard to trip me up

Hope this helps and will wait with interest to hear about your 601 gyro tests.

Paul.

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02-07-2006 05:06 PM  12 years agoPost 39
Wayne Mann

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United States of America

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Hi Paul,

Your probably right regarding the 401 starting to drift after being on for a while. I have very little experience with this gyro. The 601s do not have this problem. The servos are probably the least important part of the equation, but if you want to run a 601 you will have to use one of the two servos that are designed for it. The down side of either of these two servos is the fact that they are very fast. It's going to take a lot of expo and duel rate to slow them down.


Wayne Mann

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02-07-2006 11:02 PM  12 years agoPost 40
Michel-Henri

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On the mediterranean coast

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Hi Wayne,

Regarding your last post, it might then be a good idea to try the new CSM 720, since it performs slightly better than a 601 without imposing the use of the 'dedicated' servo. Maybe you could even fit a 9255 after all

Michel-Henri

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HomeAircraftHelicopterAerial Photography and Video › Mark IV Broadcast 360 mount video
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