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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › New 90 size gas engine from webra
09-08-2006 04:11 PM  14 years ago
Luis104

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Caracas / Venezuela

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I think it´s not fair to blame the tunning problems the fact that a Beginner pilot bought it. I´M A NEWBBIE IN HELIS JUST AS FIXIT...!!! (I have almost 2 years) and I´m completley shure there is millions of newbbie pilots interested in this engine; and they will buy it no matter what because of the high price of GLOW FUEL. It´s completley irresponsible froom Webra to sell a NEW ENGINE DESSIGN without some easily understandable tunnig instructions for everyone (just as all engines trademarks do) even worst, Webra it´s selling this engine with problems in the sensor (is it soo hard to include a fan sensor with the engine...???)

I really hope WEBRA fix this problems, I still think this it´s a good engine; the only problem, seems to be Webra using people to test the engine.
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09-08-2006 04:19 PM  14 years ago
Flying Tivo

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Monterrey,NL,Mexico

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I never said Webra charged me.
Concerning the support level: @ Flying TIVO :It is not WEBRA who is charging you the money and tax for the transport! Try to understand this, and maybe you should think about using a other parcle service. It is always possible to send the product to Webra directly if service is needed. Normally this should be done by the reseller.
Babyhermann:

If you re-read my post i said i had to pay for shipping and taxes. I never mentioned Webra charged me. The only way i can get a part in a week in Mexico is through UPS. Webra wanted to send me via air mail. This usually takes around 4-6 weeks to Mexico. Do you really think i should wait this long just because Webra decides to send it the most inexpensive way?????? I think not!!!!!

If you read my Thread on my Raptor90SE, you will read only but good things about the quality of Webra. You will also read that i got a defective part, this happens to every manufacturer. The problem came when Webra took a week to send me the sensor out to me, add the 4-6 weeks for cheap shipping, and you think i will wait another 2 Months to get my engine running???????? Its allready bad enough not being able to fly since January 06, because i decided to purchase this engine.

I know you are the test pilot for Webra, and you have all the parts and engines at your disposal, but we dont.

I really appreciate you coming in to the forum and give your experience with this engine. Please keep doing it.

I have allready installed my sensor and it is working, i have not fired the engine up, this will be done this weekend. More news from my part on monday.

Felipe
If life throws at you lemons......Squirt some lemon juice in the eye of your enemy!!!!
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09-08-2006 04:25 PM  14 years ago
Fixit

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UK

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Asong26 Quoted
Who has the money to spend $120+ on a single return shipment?

Well certainly not me, I haven’t worked for the last 5 years due too ill health and went into debt to buy these two engines because I saw it as a way to keep flying and cheaply.

I do agree a simple part could solve the problem and allow me to at least get one engine running.
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09-09-2006 04:58 PM  14 years ago
andy01423

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uk bradford

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well after looking at fixits first motor which was never overheated according to babyhermann i personally think the motor damage has been caused by a faulty ignition which is why the needle settings didn't have much effect and could not stop it from 4 stroking plus the motor had the odd misfire when it did get in the air briefly. so on the second motor fixit did not run it till i was there, started off on factory settings, this motor was much more promising in that it would rev up still 4 stroking but with more power to actually lift off with a head speed of around 1650 but then after a few mins it would start to bog and these bogging symptoms start to get worse and before another motor is wrecked fixit checked the ignition and there is multiple sparks on the up stroke and the down stroke as if the timing has gone to pot tried to sart it up but starting got very difficult then it would not start at all checked ignition again no sparks at all. i have also noticed on both carbs feel very notchy at the low end (machining issues)

just out of interest babyhermann what are your needle settings? plus it sounds like the only heli it been tested in so far is the henseleit td-nt (which is a great heli just not very popular) but no other helicopters plus you say that you are still testing so why are the motors on sale! seen as you mention os ive never had a problem (in 21 years) with them they also state on their website that each motor goes through 2 years of testing and development before putting on the market also heard that the likes of curtiss youngblood and alan szabo etc get the new motor about a year before we do to test. i have asked you for your needle settings because fixit was told not to go below 1 turn on the main needle and it seems so far that others have had to go below that to get any sort of power. ive also had gassers in the past and not had any probs.

Andy01423
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09-09-2006 07:17 PM  14 years ago
asong26

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VA

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Dear Webra:
As I am just getting into this hobby, I am learning that this is a very niche market, especially in the heli side of the fence. And I believe that this is for a good reason. Without getting too expensive on the Turbine / Jet powered vehicles, or having enough life insurances to cover the crashes of real aircrafts; RC helis offer great balance of fun and sophistication. Through numerous PMs and messaging, I am learning that most people in this (heli) hobby are extremely professional people. Day by day, I am meeting doctors, lawyers, engineers, consultants, social workers who are die hard fans of this hobby. Wow, what a great place to be! Having said this, and looking through these forums, I am confident that these professionals with strong moral and ethics are not abusing the product, nor are they trying to make companies pay for their abuse and mistakes. Everyone in these forums are working hard together to share ideas and help one another. It truly is a great scene. As I am grateful to have found a hobby around these great people, I believe companies that supply these products should be too.

New product development is a daunting task. I know. I've worked with numerous fortune 500 companies helping them to release their products in the marketplace cheaper, faster and better. You're often faced with unrealistc release dates, budget and resources to make it happen. On top of that you must also balance time-to-market vs. cost vs. competitive differentiation. Unless these activities are coordinate effectively, it is very difficult to make it. Many companies are solving these issues (time-to-market / testing) by forming a tighter collaboration within their user / prospective customer community and their own supplier base. By working with the customers, companies can accelerate this process while simultaneously improving the quality of these products. You may already be doing this with professional pilots, but they don't typically represent the the mass.

It is your company, and I don't presume to understand your constraints, but I urge you to work with your customers. Treat your customers with respect, and leverage them to learn. And if you have to pick up the tabs for shipping, or even sending out another improved components, don't make the customers pay for this, especially for a Beta products such as this. This is a small market with numerous competitors. And most of the product lines among the competitors are not that strongly differentiated. In a small, competitive market such as this, it is absolutely imperative that you use cutomer service and satisfaction to your competitive advantage.

I sincerely hope that you will be able to quickly resolve this issue with 'Fixit' and let the people see that Webra is standing behind their product. I am a strong supporter of your technology, and everyone in this particular thread is. Leverage us to learn from our experiences, and work with us on this. And if this process is going to cost Webra certain amount of capital to pull off, the it should be considered as a good investment within your quality control process. No company in this field can afford to have this much negative press.

Thak you.
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09-10-2006 12:58 AM  14 years ago
trinitronman04

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RTP, NC - USA

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Well Put.

If that doesn't work......THREATEN to send Arnold Schwarzenegger back!
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09-10-2006 01:09 AM  14 years ago
Fixit

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UK

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Very Well Put

What about Arnold Gassernegger
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09-10-2006 05:33 AM  14 years ago
fritzthecat

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Virginia Beach, VA

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Just for fun and because it rained today I played with my engine.
1- A GV-1 sensor & magnet will NOT work with the Webra ignition. Using a DMM I got readings of 1kohm between black and white on the Webra sensor. I got an open (infinite ohms) reading the same colors on the GV sensor.
2- There are two spark points during engine rotation. They are about 30 Deg apart and correspond to the width to the crankshaft counterweight. The first one would only fire when the engine is turned CCW (i.e. running) the other would fire going both ways. I did not take my backplate off to check the timing of the sparks.

Maybe some others could make some comparisons.

Hopefully I'll be able to run thi$ thing next week.

Fritz

'Send Money, Women and Guns!'
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09-10-2006 06:21 AM  14 years ago
nadman

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Dubai

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Hi fellows,

Just got my 91i + Magic pipe from cyber. it will go in my R90 this week. I hope the ignition system doesn't give me headache.
will post pics and findings.
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09-10-2006 04:17 PM  14 years ago
hiroboss

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Malaysia

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I have some updates on the Webra gasoline. Today I flew my heli with it. As expected, I'm experiencing the same difficulty as you all did. Engine bogged down when it hot and hard to start too.
BUT, this topic is sooo good with infos and actually provides me with a good base line. I use MPII muffler. I may be repeating what you guys have tried before, but I think it's worth to share. In my opinion, the engine simply failed to provide enough fuel pressure. This may have been contributed by my decision to use MPII, but as soon as the fuel reached the carburator, the engine immediately runs and idling beautifully! Even after it was running for 5mins and really hot!
I'm starting to think that it wasn't the ignition that's causing the problems (in my case) but rather weak fuel supply. After I kill the engine, I noticed that there are bubbles in the fuel line just before the carburator. And to start it back (immediatly), I had to block the exhaust with my finger and crank the engine at the same time. And it fires up..idling and die after a few seconds. And then the bubbles came back. The ignition on my engine didn't fail on me today (yet and I hope it won't ).
Another thing that I'd like to add, my cooling shroud helped a lot! No temp readings though..but if it's overheated then it won't idles properly, right? What do you guys think about me using MPII? What puzzle me though, why the bubbles exist?
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09-10-2006 04:39 PM  14 years ago
Jarno

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Finland

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Hiroboss

It is the same thing with the nitro version as well. MPII doesn't give pressure enough without moving a pressure nipple on the MPII to another location which can be seen on the following link.

http://www.mcb-bregenz.at/hubi/beri...bra91P5AARComp/

Cheers
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09-11-2006 05:17 AM  14 years ago
hiroboss

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Malaysia

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Thank you! I'll post my updates soon as I make the new change. I hope you're right about this, cause this is a brand new muffler
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09-11-2006 06:04 AM  14 years ago
nadman

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Dubai

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Flying Tivo

Just wanted to say thanks for the spark plug cap idea in your r90se post. i did the same. lets hpoe we don't get too much RF noise.
I should finish engine instalation in few days.
i hope the ignition system is okay with mine
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09-11-2006 07:00 AM  14 years ago
Jarno

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Finland

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Thank you! I'll post my updates soon as I make the new change. I hope you're right about this, cause this is a brand new muffler
In worst case scenario you have a MPII with two optional fittings for pressure that can easily be blocket with a crew

As for the air bubbles make sure that all the fittings you have are absolutely sealed. Use zipties if needed.
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09-11-2006 07:50 AM  14 years ago
3DPP

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Vienna/Austria

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Hi
I was flying the 91i in a MP91 for some time for testing.
Here some thoughts.
The bubbles in the fuel line are coming if the motor is getting hot and in that way the carb too, because of the heat the gas is expanding and to not like to went in the carb and drive the easy way back to the tank, that's why a hot motor is only to start until the carb is cooling down. This you can do with closing the outlet from the muffler with your finger during starting and the pressure went in the tank and press the gas in the carb which cools him down.
From my experience I would say pressure from the muffler should be low and not high or nothing, because if you are at high speed and closing the carb pressure is in the tank and is pressing fuel in the carb and the motor start to get rich may be to much.
During soft 3D which was able with the MP91, without pressure from the muffler I had the best results, or with the regulator it worked too.

Some thoughts about the different from a methanol motor to a gas motor and the cooling system:
The small motors living at most from evaporating cooling, more nitro inside, more fuel you can burn, more evaporation cooling is there.
If you use 30% nitro and went back to a straight fuel without nitro, the fuel consumption went down near to 25%, the temp is rising from may be 110° to 150°Celsius, because of less fuel is running through the motor, yes and also the power from the motor went down.
Now if you use gas, the fuel consumption is more less then straight fuel, yes and in that way the evaporation also.
A Raptor 90 fan isn't able to cool a motor during 3D with straight fuel, how it should work with gas where the evaporation cooling is more less?
In my mind the most here having a cooling problem and not a motor problem.
I didn't fly the gas engine during all the test because to much time was needed so I do not know the end of the story, but one thing in my motor never failed and that was the sensor.
The ignition was a dog because to powerful, but at Webra they could stop that with a better isolation.
The carb I do not know because I was flying an mix control carb which worked perfect, but at Webra they told me the customer do not like it and they will have a look for a easy one.
In last time I was on fun fly with my Synergy and saw all the time smoky there too, the motor is in a Vision SX with good cooling system, like the most European helis have it, the motor was running all the time smooth and with well power for loops and rolls.
One time he has a misfiring engine, but he could solve the problem which was coming from the spark shoe where the outside ring was loose and the ignition get a less mass in that way.

Hope this helps a little
br peter
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09-11-2006 08:49 AM  14 years ago
fritzthecat

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Virginia Beach, VA

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Interesting.
I understand the following...
The engine was tested in a few euro helis.
The carb was a special mixture control unit.
A fuel regulator was used at times.

Nowhere in the Webra webpage, advertisements or the instructions does it mention a need for special high flow cooling systems. All ads state that the 91Pi is a drop in replacement for nitro engines. Now all of a sudden a R90 cooling system is inadequate. Not a good thing since this heli is one of the most popular.

The carb overheats. I guess all those highly paid engineers at Webra never looked at an OS carb or they would have seen the heat isolating spacer between the carb and the engine case. And thank you Webra for assuming us consumers want simple controls because our brains can't figure out more than one needle.

It's pretty obvious that Webra rushed this POS to the market and we idiots that jumped out and bought this thing are the beta testers. Very obvious since they make you send the whole engine back to Webra for engineering analysis. Their marketing weenies looked at the Euro heli doing a loop and a roll and declared the engine ready for sale.

Hey Webra, how about a refund for this overpriced hunk of metal. Or at least some payment for beta testing your junk.

Fritz

'Send Money, Women and Guns!'
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09-11-2006 09:21 AM  14 years ago
hiroboss

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Malaysia

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The bubbles in the fuel line are coming if the motor is getting hot and in that way the carb too, because of the heat the gas is expanding and to not like to went in the carb and drive the easy way back to the tank, that's why a hot motor is only to start until the carb is cooling down.
Agree with you..because just as soon as the engine died, the air started to accumulate slowly. I also agree with the evaporation thingy..
I guess all those highly paid engineers at Webra never looked at an OS carb or they would have seen the heat isolating spacer between the carb and the engine case.
I can agree with this too..but so far OS never produce a gas engine in a 90sized case. Even if they did so, it may not work as well in a gas engine since it will operate in a higher temp.
Or at least some payment for beta testing your junk.
Couldn't be happier than this..

I'm not saying which heli is better than the other. I think Webra should add more info in its ads so that people would not feel cheated. I'm assuming this engine is more suitable in a plank where it gets more air from the props. But since it says that it's for helis, Webra should have tested it in more machine rather than a few models (different heli may have different cooling systems)..and I'm assuming that the air is cooler there in Austria rather than here in Malaysia, or anywhere else in the world where the air temp is around 29-34C (37C in a fre***** hot day!). Though the engine is 40% frustration, I still can see there's another 30% fun and 30% more hope on it. I'm not giving up yet.

I'll try to post my spark plug pix tomorrow for you guys to comment on.
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09-11-2006 10:07 AM  14 years ago
3DPP

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Vienna/Austria

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fritzthecat
I was only flying the motor in the beginning, because has to less time to fly all the day.
As I stopped my test flying, there the motor was full OK only the carb wasn't produced complete so I testet with a mix control.
If you could read well you will find that I flew also without the regulator, but may be at all your sarcasm you didn't find it because this one makes you blind.
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09-11-2006 11:35 AM  14 years ago
hiroboss

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Malaysia

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I have another question, how do you kill this engine? On a normal nitro engine, we would hit throttle cut. But what about this engine? Does it operate the same way as its nitro counterpart?

I don't have the chance to practice this on my engine since it dies on itself..( this can be a sarcasm for sure..)
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09-11-2006 11:42 AM  14 years ago
3DPP

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Vienna/Austria

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I switched off the ignition or closed the carb.
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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterEngines Plugs Mufflers Fuel › New 90 size gas engine from webra
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