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07-20-2006 03:06 PM  14 years ago
marcuskeeler

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Ontario, Canada

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Hi JohnC

I'm back from vacation now, interested to see other guys have the HC unit and read their impressions.
If you hold the heli at a roll angle and switch in the "Horizontal Mode", the swashplate tilts immediately to level the helicopter yes ?.
Yes, true...
Then (as you hold the helicopter there) it slowly comes back to the neutral position ?.
No, it stays in the corrective position. At any given time it certainly knows where it is and, as importantly, where it wants to go. I tried this for about 10 seconds without the HC giving up. I would say that the HC responded in the correct manner.
Now if you roll the heli back level, does the swash now tip trying to take it back to where you were just holding it ?.
Nope, It levels out.

I see my findings differ from the other set of answers. I'm not enirely sure what that means LOL I can say that ths absolutely happened for me though.
www.mkeeler.com
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07-20-2006 03:09 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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There is NO reliable internal reference. The x-y gyros being a momentary reference HH-like for small movements. Otherwise there will be a big reference failure. The only reliable "reference" is the saved neutral position which will be used only after it is supposed to be already level - for fine correction. That's it.

Tom
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07-20-2006 03:15 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Hi Marcus!
But anyway - it works! This morning I let it climb to 6 meters between the trees surrounding it - each not more than 1..2 meters away from the rotor circle. I do not think that the altitude makes a difference.

Tom

Ah, sorry, not my natural language.. not "let it" than "let she".
A helicopter is a "she" in your language, isn't it?
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07-20-2006 03:32 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Nope, It levels out.

I see my findings differ from the other set of answers. I'm not enirely sure what that means LOL I can say that ths absolutely happened for me though.
Marcus, move the heli in your hand 45 degrees off level backwards and stay so. What happens? First the swash is trying to correct by leaning forward. Then after a few seconds the swash starts to creep to a horizontal position (of the swash, not the heli).
Then move the heli back to level. What happens? The swash leans backward to correct. After a few seconds the swash again starts to creep to horizontal - what is the level position of the heli in this case.
Right?

In my opinion a quite normal behaviour of the gyros.

Tom
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07-20-2006 04:10 PM  14 years ago
marcuskeeler

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I'll give it a try tonight when I get home from work www.mkeeler.com
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07-20-2006 05:52 PM  14 years ago
clay454

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it might have a true internal reference above earth. there are sensors that can do this. Magnemometers I have found are very small and accurate.
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07-20-2006 08:49 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Yes but it hasn't - temp compensated piezo gyros only.

Tom
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07-21-2006 02:04 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Hi,

I tried to "squeeze" Captron a bit over the last two days to find out more about the functionality of the HC. I got answers.. but not enough so far. They're pointing to the fact that they are developers and all the technical support is with Robbe in Europe. They don't have the time to answer all my questions in detail.

They have my understanding for that.
My last try was to face them with my personal model of the functionality of the HC in H-mode - asking them to tell me if they can confirm it.

Just waiting for their answer.. I told them that if they will not respond I'll propagate my image as others do w/ theirs in forums.
So I'll do - later.

Tom
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07-23-2006 06:05 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Hi,

I found the time to get to air field yesterday to do some flight tests on the HC 3D. It was very warm again here yesterday so I went not before the evening - testing time was limited therefore. Luckily I did it yesterday because the weather of today had many chances of rain and my little son got sick.

Find my modest "report" attached as a PDF.

Best,
Tom

Oops, no way to attach non-picture files.
Use this link instead http://213.160.24.108/HC3D.pdf (472KB)

Not sure if it came out clearly: The HC (H-mode) calms the "jumpiness" of the helicopter down in a manner that it flys more stable and calculable than a little coaxial heli like 47G or Lama from E-Sky. On the other hand it remains agile like w/o the HC if you want it by stick action.

And before someone asking: I'm NOT with Captron or Robbe. Believe me please!
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07-23-2006 08:34 PM  14 years ago
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Find my modest "report" attached as a PDF.

Best,
Tom
kind of tough to quote from a PDF file on this machine ...

I think all these stabilization devices are intended to be used by beginners whether they advertise them as such or not. I totally disagree that you can't use them from the start although the feel of hover is quite different. This is my experience.

If you use such a device the pilot (beginner) has to realize that his /her inputs are taking the machine out of hover where as without the device his/her inputs are stopping sideslip motion. It sounds simple but it isn't. Because when you tilt the swash to stop the motion it stays tilted in the opposite direction so you have to time when the stop will actually occur and then bring the swash back to center.

Granted the feel is completely different and much easier with stabilization assisting. To me not being able to use stabilization from the start is nonsense. You should use it from the start it is safer and can prevent crashes. However you should not advance beyond your capabilities and think because hovering is easy you are ready to do loops and rolls. You can easily test your ability by gaining elevation and turning it off. And I do not understand what others are talking about that you cannot turn the FS8 stabilization off remotely because mine sure does.

Ace

I could not follow your report about drifting gyros. Does the HC have a way of preventing drift after initialization has occurred or not?
Ace
What could be more fun?
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07-23-2006 08:42 PM  14 years ago
marcuskeeler

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Nice work although I think you may have alienated all beginners/learners by referring to them as "Bloody Beginners" www.mkeeler.com
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07-23-2006 09:18 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Hi Marcus!

Oops. I did not want to do that.. My apologies to all feeling alienated by that wording. Please remember that English isn't my natural language. On the other hand I think that I still can very good imagine what it means to be "bloody" It is only 18 months ago I was in that situation.

Natural language: Again I used 'it' instead of 'she' for naming a helicopter because it stills feels rather strange to me as a German to personalise a "thing".

Marcus, what was the result of your testing on the bench. You remember what I'm speaking about?

All: I've added a 5th page to the PDF because I forgot to mention some issues.

Tom
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07-23-2006 09:27 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Ace,

It seemed easier to me to write it by Word than to "hack it in" here online. It is also easier to align pictures to the text.

FS8: We already had a discussion on. I don't have a FS8, it's a CPD4 (two of them). And in fact you cannot turn it off completely from the transmitter - for what reason ever.

Taking off in position mode: It's not an issue for me because I'm not interested in the P-mode. Taking off in H-mode works very well.

Tom
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07-23-2006 09:51 PM  14 years ago
Hanson

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Helicommand in horizontal mode works same as CDP4, FS8, ap2000i or better? what about horizontal drift compared to other INFRARED devices like ap2000?

regards
(sorry for my english)
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07-23-2006 09:53 PM  14 years ago
AceBird

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It seemed easier to me to write it by Word than to "hack it in" here online. It is also easier to align pictures to the text.
Agreed, most of my post are constructed in a word processor and then pasted in except for the photos.

The advantage of uploading the photos is you can actually see something rather than looking at a formated photo in a web page or pdf file.

I have been told by Nathan that the Cpd4 and the FS8 are identical as far as stabilization. If you are referring to the 4% stabilization that exist when it is turned off then I now know what you are talking about. But you have to realize that a beginner can not detect 4% whether he is bloody or not! And if you are not a beginner you wouldn't be using it unless you wanted stabilization for some other reason in which case you would be far above 4%.

As a beginner I need to know if drift should occure for what ever reason in one or both axis like it can happen with anyt gyro is there a way to reinitialize or trim the drift out while in flight with this HC device?

Ace
Ace
What could be more fun?
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07-23-2006 09:57 PM  14 years ago
AceBird

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Helicommand in horizontal mode works same as CDP4, FS8, ap2000i
You can use your trims all you what with copilot. If Helicammand is using HH gyros you would not be able to use your trims after it initiallizes. So how does it really work over the long term?

ACe
Ace
What could be more fun?
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07-23-2006 10:06 PM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Ace,

Sorry, I missed the point a bit w/ my answer on "Position Mode". Did not read your post careful enough.

CPD4: Well, I bought it in winter time - you know that time intended to get frustrated - and was only interested to play w/ a stabilizer. I'm an engineer in electronics..
Well, my problem with the CPD4 was only that I flew it under conditions of a very distorted infrared horizon - in my little backyard, a few meters away from the house. And perhaps I set it up much to sharp.. The crashes happened w/ the rest-effect of a turned-off CPD.

Drift: All three gyros are of piezo type but they (Captron) told us that they have a temperature compensation integrated. I did not observe any drift concerning the nick/roll gyros. I did not test long enough w/ the internal tail gyro to can experience any drift.

Did that answer your questions, Ace, Hanson?

Tom

No.., that wasn't enough:
The gyros of the HC ARE running in HH mode.
Yes, you may trim it in-air by the 'autotrim' function.
Hanson, although I already read about the AP2000i I did not test it und so far I cannot compare it. As far as I know this is a blended device of gyros and infrared sensors.

I won't to compare here the FS8/CPD4 w/ the HC because I fear that would lead to endless discussions -perhaps a "war" - between Ace and me. (A joke only.) No, I'm not experienced enough in the use of the FMA stabilizers to be able to compare it, sorry.

Tom

Did not oberve any drift and I think the functional principles wouldn't let the HC to show-up drift effects. Sounds funny, I know, but if you read about my personal model of the functionality you'll see what I mean.
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07-23-2006 11:34 PM  14 years ago
Hanson

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Poland SILESIA

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so! is HC in horizontalmode usable for AP same as IR devices or not?
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07-24-2006 05:20 AM  14 years ago
dl7uae

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Hanson,

GM neighbor - had to drive to the gas station at 6am - milk was over and my little son wanted his 'Caba Milk'....

Concerning your question: Yes, it would I would say.

Tom

I checked the home page of the AP2000i and was surprised.
They do not really have a stabilizer. With an optional adapter cable you may connect a CPD4 to the AP.. and the inertial sensors (gyros) are an option you have Spartan to ask for (availability, price).
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07-24-2006 12:21 PM  14 years ago
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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The AP2000i is a flight stabilizer with features in addition to stabilization. It does not connect to the Copilot system. It uses Spartan's IR sensor cable to connect to the IR sensor that fma produces. Spartan is currently developing thier own IR sensor to work in conjunction with the AP2000i.Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
Spartan RC Distributor
Outrage Helicopters
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