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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-AlignOther › Is to much power ever an issue? What should I do?
01-15-2006 08:07 AM  13 years ago
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rickj202

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Is to much power ever an issue? What should I do?
Hello,

I am convinced that I would like to go with a Neumotor set up for my T-rex SE. The question I have is which one. Should I go with
1105/3Y or 1107/2Y and what battery config. 3 cell or 4 cell tooth pinion? Is the extra weight of 1107/2Y and a 4 cell to much stress on the heli? Type of flying I do is all around from hovering to 3D. I am looking for a reliable motor set up with plenty of power. Is to much power ever an issue? Can the T-rex hold up to a Neumotor 1107/2Y? Please let me know you thoughts. Any other motor suggestions would be great.

Thanks,

Rick
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01-15-2006 08:18 AM  13 years ago
Daniel Wee

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Well, my personal opinion so far is that on 3S the Neu 1105/3Y is under-powered for anything but the mildest 3D. This is 3S and 11T. With your SE the AUW should be in the 720g+ region and what you will find is that the climbouts are nothing to shout about and you lose quite a bit of altitude in stationary rolls. Consecutive stationary flips and rolls would not look pretty at all and you won't be able to pull more than 2 of these back to back without losing your tail.

On the plus side, it runs very cool and you get lots of run time especially if you're simply doing circuits, figure eights, stall turns - all of which are perfectly suited for the Neu 1105/3Y. But it's not a 3D motor on 3S.

I don't have the 1107 so I can't comment too much on it but it is 90g and much heavier than the 1105. There are several people who run this motor on their T-Rex but you need to check that your frame can take it because it is longer than your regular motors for T-Rex. Most people run the 1107 with 4S for better performance. On 3S I suspect it's going to be lacklustre.

Daniel
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01-15-2006 08:48 AM  13 years ago
Hoverdown3K

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what is your flying style?-= I know there is Money in RC helicopters. I put it there=-
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01-15-2006 03:52 PM  13 years ago
rickj202

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My flying style is moderate 3D.
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01-16-2006 07:46 AM  13 years ago
Daniel Wee

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I just got back from the field doing some tests with the Neu 1105/3Y with Align real CF 325 blades and the 3S TP2100 Prolites. I had the MicroPower flight recorder strapped in for the test flight and that led to an AUW of about 766g, a bit on the high side. The CF blades were also heavier than my usual PRO325 woodies - they added about 10g to the whole setup but I wanted to test the CF blades out anyway. TC was 100-90-100.

The maximum power recorded was just a hair shy of 185W, and that's assuming 100% efficiency. In reality it's probably around 175W of actual power delivered to the blades. That's not a lot. Idle current is as low as 6A which is pretty good. Maximum current is just under 18A, which is very low, nowhere near the 15C capacity of the TP2100 which ran cool throughout.

The flight consisted of flying in idle-up throughout except for the spool-up to a unloaded headspeed of 2600RPM. There is bogging in a full +10 degrees pitch climbout, bearing in mind the 766g AUW is on the heavier side (but not uncommon especially with the SE version). I did non stop fast figure eights and circuits with many rolls in between and a flip or two. It was quite windy today but I did not measure the windspeed.

At the end of the flight, the charger put 1440mAh back into the battery. (Interestingly, the graphing software computed the total AH consumed to be around 770mAh, just about half of actual power used. This should be a problem with the software which apparently has a few minor bugs. The software otherwise works great.)

Here are the power graphs for my flight of slightly over 8 minutes. These were generated using the software supplied with the Eagle Tree Systems - MicroPower flight recorder.

I stand by my earlier conclusion, that the performance is lacklustre for this setup - 720-770g range of AUW. Neu 1105/3Y on 3S - great for sport flying and circuits, excellent for hovering, somewhat underpowered for 3D. Highly efficient, runs cool, easy on the batteries, medium weight motor.

Daniel Wee

Note: I have two of these Neu 1105/3Y and on my second one, there was some odd noise in the bearings out of the box and eventually one of the magnets came loose. I'm going to have to send this one back to Steve at Neutronics. They'll fix it but it's a hassle since I'm not in the States.
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01-16-2006 02:35 PM  13 years ago
zo6

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Both of those Neu motors will need 4s power if you want some rip. You can check out the 1107/2Y motor on the site below. Hit the video link at the left and the bottom two vids are Neu/Trex videos on 4s power.

http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=15
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01-16-2006 05:11 PM  13 years ago
rickj202

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My question still is, can you have to much power where T-rex can not handle the power? If I went with Neumotor 1107/2Y, which battery should I use TP 2100 4S or TP 2000 4S? What kind of flight times should I expect on a 4S setup running a 10 or 11 tooth pinion?

Thanks,

Rick
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01-16-2006 05:55 PM  13 years ago
Gary Jenkins

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Toooooooo much powwwwer? No way!!!!!!!!
Have you ever been in a car with too much power?
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01-16-2006 06:18 PM  13 years ago
Chris True

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At high RPM on 4S the rex likes to shake parts loose even though you can't see and vibrations - so make sure EVERYTHING metal to metal is locktited securely. My particular Rex was basically unflyable with the original tail rotor gear ratio on 4S - lots of wag issues at various points in the flight envelope no matter how low the gain was turned down. Installing the near blue gear and it's lower ratio made that issue go away.

Try a 12 or 13 tooth pinion on 3S if power is an issue on the 11, I do kind of agree that the 1107/2Y is decent but nothing spectacular on 3S with the 11 tooth gear. Should be solvable with a bigger wheel though. I just ordered a 12 and 13 tooth MX400 pinion from tower that has the required 2.3mm hole size...
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01-16-2006 06:27 PM  13 years ago
rickj202

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How many amps does the 1107/2Y draw on 3S using a 12 and 13 tooth pinion? How many amps does 1107/2Y draw on a 4S using a 11 tooth?

Thanks,

Rick
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01-16-2006 06:47 PM  13 years ago
Chris True

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DunnoI'll let you know when the gears come in.

11T with 4S would be insane - try 9 first! The issue is that on 4S it has more voltage to work with AND the lower gear ratio with the 9 tooth. You can load it up and it doesn't bog much at high RPM. With 3S the 12T gear should give exactly the same RPM but 2 problems: Most use the 11 since that is the biggest Align sells with the 2.3mm hole. Secondly, with 25% less voltage the amps need to be higher which means the voltage sags a little more which slows the motor down some AND the ratio is higher so there is less torque to resist bogging. Hence you may need an extra tooth and run more of a variation in your throttle curve - lower the middle point to get the RPM back down to where it was on 4S / 9T.

It is an extremely efficient and low resistance motor. Saying it doesn't make enough power on 3S is just BS, the gear ratio is wrong. Comparing amps directly is also not that helpful given the variation in efficieny at the operatig point. It is AT LEAST 10% for some of these motors, probably quite a bit higher.
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01-16-2006 08:01 PM  13 years ago
Daniel Wee

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I did think of trying a higher pinion on the Neu 1105/3Y but what stopped me was the amount of bogging I am already seeing at full pitch with 11T. So going to 12T may raise the unloaded headspeed but it certainly will not get you more power.

Secondly, while the amp reading certainly doesn't tell you the whole story, what you CAN be sure of is that the actual power delivered will not be more than what the amps read tell you. Ie. you can't have more power than the max wattage reading, which in this case seems to be around the 185W mark. (TrexTuning has it around the 170W mark). Going to 4S will raise the theoretical limit in power to around 250W or so - which is pretty good.

So what I'm saying is that regardless of your gearing setup, you will not pull much more than 185W out of a Neu 1105/3Y - which incidentally is what the graph above refers to.

The Neu 1107 on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish altogether. I am thinking of ordering one just to test it out and make a side by side comparison, and work out the gain/loss in thrust/weight ratio with that motor. I've no doubt it will perform very well at 4S but what I think we need is for someone to run actual tests with this motor on 3S so we can compare numbers against other motor options.

Daniel
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01-16-2006 08:26 PM  13 years ago
Chris True

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We're talking past each other a bit - my comments are for the 1107 which is what I own. I agree, the 1105 is a much smaller motor, the resistance is higher (> than double the 1107 I think) and bogging would be an issue. It is a lot easier to get the 1105 into an unsustainable gear ratio setup than the 1107.

If the published specs are accurate you don't really have to buy every motor to tell how it will perform. Io or no-load current is the big determinate for how efficiently the motor will run in a heli, Ri or Rm - same thing, determines how much the RPM will drop when you slam the collective in.

If you have two different motors from diff. manufacturers with Io's of 1 and 2 amps, same Kv's and both the same Ri of 11 milli-ohms they should both feel the same in the heli. The one with the higher Io is going to be significantly less efficient - on the order of 10% jsut because it takes an extra amp of current for spinning the motor and your average current draw is in the 9-12 amp range. The 1105 has a fairly hi Ri, look at the specs on themotors you've flown and I bet they stack up in order of Ri's as far as how pwerful or not powerful you thought they felt. OTOH, if you whack up the voltage to 4S, 5S or 6S then that small motor has the capability to achieve huge power - more than the heli can harness and you wouldn't see the bogging to any signifant degree.
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01-16-2006 08:45 PM  13 years ago
Chris True

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Some motors I can lay my hands on the #'s for:

In order of motor name with Kv, Io, Ri
Medusa 028-4200 1.9 .013
Nue 1107/2Y-3,400 .9 .020
Medusa 028-3400 1.4 .020
Medusa 028-2800 1.1 .029
Mega 16-15-3-3.000 1.7 .027
Nue 1105/3Y-3,500 .65 .039
Astro 020-3300 1.0 .045

The way they are listed should be most powerful to least powerful. The Medusa 028-4200 is probably unusable on anything over 3S.

Efficiency wise that is NOT the case. I've personally flown the 1107, Astro 020 and the Mega. I'm not entirely sure the numbers for the Astro are the correct ones - there are so many 020's! But they way it falls in the list does make sense so I stuck it in...
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01-17-2006 01:06 AM  13 years ago
zo6

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Too much power is like too much money or a chick that is too good looking or a car that is too fast. Anyway, I think that's how the song goes.

Use a ESC that has a functioning gov mode and that too much power is held in reserve.
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01-17-2006 04:28 AM  13 years ago
Daniel Wee

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Chris, that's an excellent post!

Now, this is the kind of info that helps level the playing field. Is there a way to get the numbers for the Lehner, and the 450TH? I'd be interested to see how they fit into the list here.

Daniel
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01-17-2006 05:08 AM  13 years ago
Chris True

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Lehner publishes Kv's under load rather than the true unloaded Kv figures, they don't list Io or Rm at all which is a shame. Not sure on the other motor, ask the manufacturer or distributor. They are not listed in Motocalc which is the source of most of the motor data I have.
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01-17-2006 07:08 AM  13 years ago
OICU812

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Edson, Alberta, Canada

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Man you guys sure get technical! I just fly the poop out of it and see what works! But hey good to get educated, thanks for sharing all the jargon....Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
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01-18-2006 01:14 AM  13 years ago
rickj202

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Overall my conclusion from the various posts on runryder is that you can not go wrong with Neumotor 1107/2Y in a 3S or 4S configuration ranging from a 9 tooth to an 11 tooth. I thought maybe the medusa on 3 cell, but the Neumotor seems to give you more options and is more efficient. What do you think?
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01-18-2006 02:44 AM  13 years ago
Jim Cimino

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NE Pennsylvania

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I'm running the 1107/2Y with a 9T on 4S and am very happy with it. The motor seems very efficient and have been limiting my flights to ten minutes because I have yet to change my ESC settings from my old set-up with the 3S. I have been flying it about three weeks and nothing has vibrated loose yet. Very smooth, very powerful, and at the end of ten minutes the motor is still cold. I am very happy.
Jim
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