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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterThunder TigerOther › Horrible noises while starting R50??? Help!!!!
01-14-2006 01:13 AM  13 years ago
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helifundi

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Lick Run, PA

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Horrible noises while starting R50??? Help!!!!
Well, in spite of all of your suggestions regarding this issue, the very unpleasant noise continues!!!!!! Pinion bearings are secure; new starter shaft installed; multiple starters tried; new clutch bell and bearing; new clutch and one-way; both engines rebuilt! The ugly metal-on-metal continues during starting only.

One observation: all of my TT starter shafts have a section about 20mm. long (near the miidle) with a somewhat smaller diameter, presumably to reduce the possibility of interference with the pinion gear. However, on mine (the starter shaft that I replaced), the upper 4mm.shoulder of the starter shaft (just below the reduced diameter section) was highly shined as though it had been rubbing in the inside of the pinion gear. Anyone else observe this?? This problem may drive me crazy, so I will appreciate your help!

Otherwise, my R50s run and fly great!
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01-14-2006 01:51 AM  13 years ago
helifundi

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Lick Run, PA

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The damage to the R50 starter shaft (apparently due to rubbing) is apprx. 20 mm. above the E clip groove. This section is inside the pinion gear. What's up???: New shaft; new bearings; new clutch, etc....................
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01-14-2006 08:33 AM  13 years ago
Jasper7

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Birmingham , UK

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Have you replaced the Engine bearings, I had similar problem, ugly noise when starting, as the clutch was not engaged it could only be the Motor, bell bearings or the bearing in the frame to support the shaft.

Changed the Engine bearings and quiet as Mouse

Steve
Jasper 7
T-Rex 700N
T-Rex 600N
T-Rex 450Pro

Citizen Number: 00212
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01-14-2006 09:37 AM  13 years ago
SPB

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Athens - Greece

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I also have the same noise as well as many friends of mine in the field. As Jasper7 said it's the engines ball bearings. Personally since the engine works OK after that I am not bothering so far. I just make sure that I am drying the engine after the end of the flight.
Sotiris
myhelis.com Flying Team
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01-14-2006 10:35 AM  13 years ago
nivlek

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Norfolk England

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Maybe it's your starter making the noise ! Lol At the end of the day , it gets dark .
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01-14-2006 12:42 PM  13 years ago
NitroJunky

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Rockhampton QLD Australia

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Noise on starting
It sounds to me like your engine is misaligned either in the engine mount itself or somehow the engine mount is misaligned in the frames. This is allowing the starter shaft to rub.
If you ain't crashin', you ain't tryin' 'arrrd enough
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01-14-2006 09:39 PM  13 years ago
helifundi

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Lick Run, PA

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I have replaced everything with new, tried different starters, engines, clutches, bearings, etc., had the engine out a dozen times (thus the allignment has been changed slightly each time), etc., etc. If I turn the engine over with the starter when its out of the heli (with the start shaft inserted in the clutch)it sounds fine. If I install the starter shaft, then spin it with the starter, it's quiet. I install the engine and it sounds like !^^%&$!!*^%^! Could it be the one-way bearing in the clutch chattering on the starter shaft? Someone commented that the one-way should either grip or not, but not chatter?
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01-15-2006 01:20 AM  13 years ago
mbkite

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usa

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The fan must have backed off a little is their any up and down play in the crankyTrying to get back in the heli game
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01-15-2006 02:08 PM  13 years ago
helifundi

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Lick Run, PA

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No, the fan hub is tight and locked in place with nordlock lock washers and locktite.

Thanks for all of your suggestions, but I still have not resolved the noise issue.

So, let's close this subject for the time being. I have a new set of frames, so I'll build a new chassis, then transfer all of the components, electronics, etc, not invloved in starting!
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01-15-2006 06:51 PM  13 years ago
Danorn

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Alberta

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I am struggling with the same noise and after changing many of the parts, I believe the noise to be the pinion bearings actually slipping in their slots on the frames. I did the mod suggested on Raptor Tech. and it was good for about 2 tank fulls. I think I might take it apart again and grind off a bit more or even thread lock the outer race to the frame. Just my .02

Daniel
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01-17-2006 08:39 PM  13 years ago
Arky

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Corfe Mullen, Dorset, UK

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I have the very same problem sound like grinding/braking bearing only when i crank the engine with the starter.

I have replaced starter shaft, top bearing, pinon bearing, clutch one way bearing, and had motor out twice striped and checked bearings in that to, all seem fine, the one bearing i havn't replaced is the littel one that is in the clutch bell, could it be this f%&*|@er ? .... or is it the bearings sliping in the frames ? although i dont think the noise is a noise that a plastic frame could cause.

hope u can help as this is driving me MAD !!

regards Jason
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01-17-2006 08:54 PM  13 years ago
Bell 430

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West Grove Pennsylvania

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Have you checked the inside of the clutch bell to see if the clutch is rubbing? if so try removing the shimBrian Porter AMA 232513 My money flies better then I do
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01-17-2006 10:59 PM  13 years ago
Arky

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Corfe Mullen, Dorset, UK

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Yes and No its not.

jason
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01-18-2006 12:55 AM  13 years ago
helifundi

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Lick Run, PA

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I'm still working on it!!!!!! Let's see what happens this weekend, now that I have my 2 R50s back together.........................
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01-18-2006 01:01 AM  13 years ago
mbkite

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usa

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dubble check the fan didnt un screw from the crank dont trust the lock washer or the lock tightTrying to get back in the heli game
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01-18-2006 06:28 PM  13 years ago
Tron

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Morgan Hill, CA

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lhistand,

Looks like you tried replacing all the components in the area and still have the problem. Your testing with turning the engine (removed from heli) over with the starter shows that it is not the engine bearings. Adding the start shaft to the clucth one way bearing and turning it over also shows no sound so it is not chatter due to start shaft and one way bearing play. The wear spot you found on your starter shaft (20mm from eclip) indicates wear/rubbing of this start shaft against the inside of the pinion gear. This could be the spot of your metal to metal noise. One way this could happen is that the start shaft alignment through this section is skewed somehow. Did you locktite the pinion gear to the pinion bearing? Are you getting any wobble in the clutch bell/pinion gear assembly? The skewed alingment could be from movement of the bearings within the main frames.
Since starting is the only time that the start shaft actually spins, that is why you may be hearing it only on startup. After you remove the starter, the one way bearing in the clutch prevents the starter shaft from turning much (may have some movement due to engine vibration) and hence no noise.
On your next start up, after removing the starting wand, try to grab the hex adapter and give it some side to side loading to simulate an alignment issue. If you start hearing that grinding noise, then you need to shore up the bearings fit in the main frames.
Also, try to put a bit of grease on the start shaft in the indicated wear area and see if that reduces/eliminates the noise on start up.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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01-18-2006 11:36 PM  13 years ago
helifundi

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Lick Run, PA

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Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Tron. But since writing I pulled the engine in one of my R50s, that had still been noisy starting in spite of my efforts!, and found the new start shaft unblemished! So this isn't the problem, and I have no idea how the one start shaft got marred (the pinion gear would really have to get cocked out of allignment to rub the shaft, maybe during one of my hard landings!).

This may be a life long quest! I actually like the challenge!
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01-19-2006 12:00 AM  13 years ago
spifff

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Stockholm-Sweden

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Or do like me accept the noise and learn to live with it
I changed all my bearings including the one way in the clutch
and the noise ramained.
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01-22-2006 10:07 PM  13 years ago
Arky

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Corfe Mullen, Dorset, UK

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has anyone who has replaced the one way bearing done it buy replacing the clutch compleat with bearing ??? or like me pressed a new bearing in to the old / original clutch, reason i ask is i still think it sounds like the one way bearing slipping, and maybe ive fitted it badly (vch tech)

Jason
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01-25-2006 06:10 PM  13 years ago
Ando

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Mt. Pleasant, Texas

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I put this on the other topic also. This is a comment from Michael(raptortechnique.com) His answer:


"Sounds like metal to metal is from cluch pinion gear tilting and grinding on the start shaft. I would drop the engine and see how much you can tilt the clutch bell. If it moves more then 2mm per side then either the pinion bearing is not tight on the pinion gear (use green loctite), the pinion bearing has too much side play (you said you changed it already), or the frames are not gripping the bearing tight. Another thing to look at is if the gear mesh of the main gear and pinion gear align. If the main gear is low then the teeth could be engaging the top edge of the clutch bell."


Hope this helps
Andrew
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