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Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-BladeOther › Brushless motor and stock 4in1 works!
01-15-2006 04:16 PM  13 years ago
catfight

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stealth916,

I never tried the throttle endpoint setting before arming kicked in, I had always assumed that nothing happened until the ESC was armed- oh well, you win some you lose some. I can't try it anymore- went to DX6 already. You actually did this that way? I could have been flying more had I known- I should have asked you :0) Thanks!
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01-15-2006 05:18 PM  13 years ago
avator

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New Jersey

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Stealth,

I'm not sure about this, but, I think brushless motor ESC's get feedback from the motor by counter EMF for normal operation. And if that is the case, using that feedback would supply the info needed for governor mode. At least this is what I've been lead to believe. When the ESC sends a pulse to the motor a smaller opposite pulse returns. In reality, the ESC is sending pulses at a high frequency to run the motor, so the counter emf pulses are coming back at the same frequency and would let the ESC know what rpm the motor is turning.

EMF = electromotive force
counter EMF = opposite force

Anyway, this is my guess. The guarantee expires when I hit the post reply button.
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01-15-2006 05:53 PM  13 years ago
fruitjar

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Georgia, USA

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Thottle Endpoint Setting
Thanks, Stealth and everyone else for clearing this up for me...everyone here has been a great help. This will be my first electric mod and I did not want to spend money on a new TX at this time.
Thanks again....
FJ
Your attitude almost always determines your altitude ...in life
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01-15-2006 06:31 PM  13 years ago
avator

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Ok, after reading this thread I want to do the BL motor upgrade to my blade, however, I want to use the OEM transmitter. The problem is the transmitter has fixed curves so the BL replacement motor must have about the same power (preferably a little more) for this to work. I know I could use another transmitter, but, after a while you have to ask yourself how much should you dump in to a $200 helicopter.

One thing I have learned is just about everyone that has done this mod so far has the same problem….too much head speed. I’ve read comments such as scary, insane and crazy about head speed after the mod. Most conversions have been with 3600kv to one guy who used a 5400kv BL motor. Now I’m not an expert on brushless motors by any stretch of the imagination and can’t understand why use such a powerful motor if it isn’t necessary. My blade fly’s great at 1700 rpm with the stock motor, so, my goal is to use a BL motor that will produce somewhere between 1800 and 2000rpm’s rotor speed. To that end I think a 2700kv motor would be perfect depending on a few things.

1) When you go with a lower KV motor will it have enough torque to turn the main rotor without burning up? Maybe that is why everyone is using 3600 and 4100kv motors.
2) If it does have enough torque not to burn up, will it bog down to the point where the rotor rpm is too low to be of any use.

I decided to find out. I ordered a Feigao 130 series 2753kv 6amp BL motor. If it has enough torque I think it might be the Holy Grail for those guys that want brushless, but, not the insane rotor speed and who also want to keep their original transmitter. The math works out to this: 2753kv x 11.1 = 30558rpm / 14 = 2182 head speed. I’m not sure, but, I think that refers to no load speed and is calculated using a 10 tooth pinion gear. If I end up with 1900 rpm’s I think I’ll be happy with the results. I saw one post where someone said to expect 80% of the no load speed. If that is correct, then I will end up with 1746, which I believe will be a little slow. If I use an 11 tooth pinion and -20% for the load, I’ll end up with 1921, which, I think would be perfect.

Here are some of the stats that I found out.

Weights

Blade Heli without battery = 223.45 grams
Stock Nimh 650mah battery = 100.3 grams
Ready to fly stock weight = 323.75 grams

Stock brushed motor = 48.9 grams
Feigao BL motor w/ heatsink = 50.2 grams - only 1.7 grams heavier
800 mah 3s lipo = 65.4 grams
1250mah 3s lipo = 100.1 grams

Stock flying weigh
323.75 grams

Mod weight w/800mah
290.55 grams

Mod weight w/1250mah
325.15 grams

As you can see, there is no weight penalty to speak of and if you use the 800mah lipo pack you actually have over 40 grams less weight and that is substantial. This should result in great performance and longer flight times by virtue of less weight and the efficiency of the BL motor.

I’m looking for opinions here as far as my calculations or any other comments regarding the 80% load factor of BL motor ratings and what the expectations of the 2700kv motor performance might be as far as torque is concerned…Will it or won’t it burn up?
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01-16-2006 12:33 AM  13 years ago
akerkhof

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Indianapolis, IN

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after a while you have to ask yourself how much should you dump in to a $200 helicopter.
There's your problem, right there. NEVER ask yourself that question! I was stuck with a Feiago 2275kv/rpm motor to start with, and it was a dog for your purposes. You might have better luck with the one you have. Certainly trying enough pinions you should figure something out.

I did some flight testing today with my 3600/8T combo, and spent most of the time redoing my proportional and pitch curves. I also fixed some setup problems I've had since the beginning and were compensating for in my radio's software (I knew nothing about nothing when I first got this thing). And, I didn't get it tested before the sun set, so I wasn't able to get a tach reading. But even at 95% throttle, it seemed the same speed as before, if not slower. I had trouble with my collective, but that's probably because I have to fix all my setup issues. I should know more tomorrow after getting a tach reading and dialing the setup in a bit more.

-- Aron in Indiana -- http://www.neolith.org/cp2 -- Honeybee CP2 Resources
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01-16-2006 02:27 AM  13 years ago
FlyrEric

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Stealth,
You are correct, I guess I missed the whole auto throttle thing. I have mine set for fixed throttle and it seems to work just fine.

Catfight/fruitjar,
Didn't mean to come off as an A^& but there's alot of posts on here that can be resolved by simply reading the instructions. I know we're men and we don't need to look at some friggin' book to make stuff work but it does help sometimes.

Update on my "final" setup
Now with a 9t pinion. The 8t pinion had went missing at about 15-20ft or so. Good thing I put on the beefed up skids, the one way gear may have helped a little but by the time I realized something was wrong my rotor speed was way low so all I could do was keep it level until impact. No Damage!
I did some testing later for the one way gear and with some altitude and/or airspeed it seems to work great...just like the real thing.
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01-16-2006 02:48 AM  13 years ago
catfight

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flyeric,

I am not one of those people that ignores instructions or manuals - I read every one of them fully. The problem is that fixed throttle ranging is not discussed or defined anywhere by CC and is not entirely repeatable from (simple stock) tx to tx because of production variations. I spent many hours researching the "fixed-throttle" versus "auto-calibrating throttle" before contacting CC because I actually had the problem (as some others do also)of low throttle authority essentially making my brushless upgrade unuseable. The "auto-calibrate" mode at least allows you to adjust the throttle range- that's why they created that mode.

I am sure if you were to try the autocalibrate throttle procedure you would see what I mean - there is a lot more headspeed available (in relation to what you get with the fixed throttle mode) or if your tx has a precision system of adjusting servo/esc ranges better than the stock tx which only has simple "pots" controlling the pulse-widths in the fixed throttle mode (none of them adjustable).
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01-16-2006 03:03 AM  13 years ago
FlyrEric

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Gulf Coast FL

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catfight,
my "instructions" statement was a general statement not directed at anyone...didn't mean to offend.
I think (and I could be WAY off here) that the auto throttle may be more applicable to our fixed wing brothers. I would much rather hang on to one of those (at least a smallish one) and cal. the ESC on runup than try to tame a heli, even a small one, and do the same thing.
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01-16-2006 03:24 AM  13 years ago
Martin_gsxr

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Toronto

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Another ch3-esc question..
Hi Dave and others,

Do you think it will work if instead of welding the neg. and signal to

channel 3, I plugs those 2 in the pole where the stock motor is

usually plug.. maybe with a resistance between the positive pole and

the signal wire of the brushless-ESC...

What do you think??
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01-16-2006 03:31 AM  13 years ago
catfight

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flyeric,

I would agree holding a smallish fixed wing would indeed be preferred :0) Stealth made it clear that there is a way around the fixed throttle problem with the stock tx - thus rendering my $200 DX6 a "cosmetic add-on" other than a required system module (had to justify to the wife - right?) Actually after some of the discussions on the boards tonight I am glad I don't have to worry about broken crystals anymore! I was also still trying to figure out how to dangle that 72" antenna - now it's not a problem.

Cheers and keep em flyin'
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01-16-2006 03:43 AM  13 years ago
Martin_gsxr

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Dave763
Hi Dave, one thing I dont understand is you said that you dont have to

plug the positive wire of the ESC to channel 3 because the receiver is

already power.. but I think the positive wire of ESC is not there to

give power, but to receive a constant power from the 4-in1 to the

ESC (like a relay)... the signal

one the give throttle respond..

What do you think?
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01-16-2006 03:56 AM  13 years ago
catfight

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Martin,

I hope you don't mind me interrupting, but, I did this mod and you do not want the + wire to connect to the ESC. The ESC has a built-in BEC (Battery Elimination Circuit) and so does the 4in1. If you hook the two together you can have problems. Just the ground and S+ (signal) should hook to the ESC. Both the ESC and 4in1 get power from the parallel power wiring.

Good luck!
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01-16-2006 04:06 AM  13 years ago
Martin_gsxr

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Thank you Catfight,

I will try that when I receive my brushless motor this week(I hope)..

But it will very much simple if my theory of plugging those 2 wires

(signal and negative) to the pole where the stock main motor is

usually plug work...

If that dont, I dont insist anymore and stay with what you said..

Thanks again!
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01-16-2006 05:59 AM  13 years ago
Martin_gsxr

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Catfight
Catfight, if it work with the 2 wires you plug in channel 3, dont you

think it will work just to plug the signal one??

Because the ground without the positive is useless... just like only

plugging your neg. or pos. to the batterie of your car??
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01-16-2006 01:39 PM  13 years ago
catfight

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Martin,

THe signal is a pulse from 1.1 to 2.0 milliseconds and requires a ground return just like any other electrical system. Hooking up the ESC to the 4in1 will not work, that is a dc voltage ( for a brushed motor)- do not even try it you may damage your ESC.

The ESC gets its power to operate from the battery- you just need the signal and return to complete the circuit.
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01-16-2006 03:27 PM  13 years ago
avator

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Akerkhof,
I hope the Feigao 2753kv produces better results. Did you try your 2275 in the Blade and if so, how bad was it? Is it a 130 series 20mm motor? What was the rated current of your 2275?
The 2753kv draws 6amps which I believe is about the same as the stock 370 brushed motor. With the efficiency of the BL motor, I assumed it would have more power.
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01-16-2006 04:07 PM  13 years ago
akerkhof

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Indianapolis, IN

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I don't have it right in front of me, but with high timing on my ESC, it would get in the neighborhood of 1400-1500 headspeed, and way overheat. That was enough to hover, but it was dissapointing for a brushless upgrade. Also it was with 9T. On medium discharge the heat wasn't too bad, but the motor couldn't do much more than get light on the skids.

Next time I'm in my shop I'll check the label. I still have the motor, I'm using it in a small foamy stealth fighter.

-- Aron in Indiana -- http://www.neolith.org/cp2 -- Honeybee CP2 Resources
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01-16-2006 04:26 PM  13 years ago
Gary Hoorn

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Annapolis Maryland USA

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Martin,
I hope you are listening to catfight! Do not hook the input of to the ESC to the output of the 4-in-1! Coming from the 4-in-1 is a varying DC voltage and not a control pulse! Also there is no need for the Red power lead on the ESC to be connected as everything is being powered from the 4-in-1 already. The ESC get its necessary signal from the control pin and the negative pin. It receives its operating voltage from the Lipo. Visit the Helihobby website and read up on their ideas for setting up separates. You seem a bit confused at the moment...
Gary

http://www.helihobby.com/html/separate_electronics.html
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01-16-2006 04:38 PM  13 years ago
Martin_gsxr

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Thanks Gary,

You`re right at first I was confused, but now it`s ok...

That`s because I was trying a more lazy solution because I`m a little

bit lazy myself...

Now I`m become crazy waiting for the delivery of my HIMAX 2015-2800 and CC pheonix10...

Thanks again !
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01-16-2006 06:36 PM  13 years ago
Nate

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Lexington, KY

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Nate,

What are you using for a tx? I tried this with the stock tx and found it did not have throttle authority (not even adjustable under the hood), so in the interest of safety I had to get a computer radio :0) Just now finishing up DX6 conversion.
Catfight,

Sorry to take so long. I've not been watching the thread. I was unsubsribed somehow.

I'm using a JR6102 with a GWS receiver. I've got a E-flite Hacker E3-49 brushless motor, 4900 kv. I used the smallest pinion I could find, 8 tooth, to try and slow down the RPMs. I still had to program more speed out of it. I'm still working with my programming but so far I love the power.
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