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11-09-2005 07:17 PM  14 years ago
dankers

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Melbourne, Australia

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Americans, you worry me further. This is pure "schadenfreude", a German word that means: a malicious satisfaction in the misfortunes of others.

Further, you are falling for the propaganda against France, the majority stems back from before the invasion of Iraq and history has shown the French (and 90% of the world) to be correct, there were no WMDs in Iraq.

I don't regard the comments as racist but just plain ignorant and aimed at a stereotype of "the French" - children at around the age of 12 tend to grasp the simple and obvious fact that people are simply trying to get on with their lives no matter what country they were born or live in. Branding a population of a whole country with a trait is naive and simplistic and not befitting to intelligent thinking Adults.

Scedu Flyer, your "history test" is simply a test in spotting spacious reasoning. It contains a least two a logical fallacy, specifically; biased sampling and hasty generalization. It simply does not follow that Muslims of certain ages be blamed for the world ills because of some cherry picked examples. This reasoning has been used many times to blame a group of people (normally by ethnic or religious boundaries) for problems and seek vengeance through collective punishment. It’s extremely narrow minded. Should we condemn the whole religious right in the US for the Oklahoma bombing, the murder of Doctors and the bombing medical clinics?

Maybe your country would not be going to the dogs so quickly if you people who self righteously wish to deride other countries took a good look at the home front instead.
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11-09-2005 07:31 PM  14 years ago
Stet

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Key Largo FL

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Very good point Ed. When the black americans affected change they did so in a specifically nonviolent manner. That is why they succeeded, unquestionably. So you are calling american blacks savages? Naughty naughty.

Not muslims doing this? Yeah, that's it, sure, I must have missed the big picture.

Not relevant their rights in their native countries? Exactly. No need to address the root of the problem.

Given that there is 20% unemployment on average in France, it is not surprising that the underclass suffers worse. Will the problem be solved by granting them affirmative action? More welfare than the average frenchman is entitled to? Force french heritage people to hire them as a reward for this violence? My opinion is that the welfare state promotes failure, and failure is what we see now very clearly. What would Ed do?

Resorting to violence and thuggery will get them nowhere, it will only make the discrimination more engrained.
keepin' it real
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11-09-2005 07:42 PM  14 years ago
Stet

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The distain for the French goes well back to WW2.

History shows also that WMD was used against Iraqi dissident populations as well as the Iranians by Sadaam. What was exported to Syria before the war will not be known. The WMD argument is moot, and discussions of intel failures etc. are useful for the future (better intel), but mean nothing for the present. It was not a US view, it was a world view that there was a threat. And this view was spoken by all leaders before Bush ever came on the scene.

It is not propaganda that the countries that opposed the war had financial interests both legitimate and illigitimate driving their positions. Those countries had no problem enriching Sadaam, a man responsible for the death of millions.

It is the French attitude towards others that has come to bite them now. Given that the anti-US sentiment constantly criticizes and mocks our efforts, would you expect otherwise?

We're not going "to the dogs" though some would like to revel in that.
keepin' it real
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11-09-2005 07:50 PM  14 years ago
Sceadu Flyer

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Horseheads, NY

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Dankers,

I am not simply condeming Islam based upon the actions of one or two individuals, such as your example of Timothy McVay. That would be indeed illogical, and foolhardy. Yet we do not see Christians, Mormans, Buddhists, Hindus......ect.ect.. Calling for Jihads against the western world.

Yes, those examples were "cherry picked" as you stated. But they are simply examples to show a trend. Any religion can be taken too far, and I do not care what religion you practice. I only care when the practice of that religion affects someone else in a neagative way (i.e. killing 2,867 of them!).

Are all people who call themselves Christians good? certainly not! Yet there is one overwhelming fact, we have been attacked by followers of Islamon several occasions, and something needs to be done about that, what, I have no idea.

The issues in France could be an impact of Economics as much as Religion or oppression. Have you ever looked at the tax rates they have there!?

And for your information, my country is far from going to the dogs! Furthermore, I have not chosen to self righteously deride other countries.

Yes, we have our issues, as do all countries, and I agree with you that we need to do more work on the home front! We have recently had many natural disasters, we are fighting a war, and we too have some civil unrest. Yet when the dust settles, and all is repaired, I am sure we will emerge better than before as we always have. And I sure as hell don't want to live anywhere else! (second choice Australia!)

Sceadu Flyer
Fly it like you stole it!
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11-09-2005 08:01 PM  14 years ago
Ed Moore

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West Sussex, UK

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Hohoho, this is like a low-grade chat show. I don't think it's a huge leap of faith to realise that I was saying 'savages' ironically. Put on a superior voice and try saying it. Maybe it got lost in cultural translation- it was an Victorian thing to routinelly refer to converting the 'savages' (as they were refered to) to doing things in a more civilised way (and hence we get the 'missionary position').
Given that there is 20% unemployment on average in France, it is not surprising that the underclass suffers worse. Will the problem be solved by granting them affirmative action? More welfare than the average frenchman is entitled to? Force french heritage people to hire them as a reward for this violence?
None of the above, but it does mean removing things like institutionalised discrimination within, say, the police force, which is what sparked these riots in the first place, if you'd like to refer back to the time before 'Angry. Muslim. France.' hit news desks. In the UK a lot more is spent on improving areas with such high poverty. It's not benefits, it's not money going directly into their pockets, it's infrastructure. It's been a lot more successful over here as a result. (Yes, you can cynically mention that the July 7 bombers were 'home grown' but they weren't blowing themselves up over infrastructure and job equality). Also France has no system of community leaders like the UK. There is no muslim council of france, there are no regular meetings between comminities and police. They are basically forgotten. None of this is subsidising their living so they need not work. They do this in the UK, and last time I checked we didn't have 20% unemploymant. Unfortunatelly there is an anti anglo saxon culture in France, as a side effect of the general fear that their culture and language is being eroded, and so it's difficult to get them to impliment any of these ideas when we suggest them, which we have been for a while.

I agree they're going about it the wrong way, but rubber bullets and tear gas aren't going to solve this problem.
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11-09-2005 08:03 PM  14 years ago
dankers

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Melbourne, Australia

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Nice post Sceadu. I'm not religious personally (not that it matters), I think anything in extreme is not a good thing (except helis). People tend to turn to extremism when they feel they have no other option, Islam is there to feed of the desperate just as other types of extermism do as well.

Stet posted this:
Given that there is 20% unemployment on average in France
That is wrong, the average unemployment in France is 10%. This shows the quality of your information - turn off the right wing radio stations and do your own research.
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11-09-2005 08:11 PM  14 years ago
dankers

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It is the French attitude towards others that has come to bite them now.
America doesn't have the best record either, in fact far worse than France. Remember the outpouring of support after 9/11? The world (including France) was united behind the USA, yet when France is having problems you want to just ridicule them and state they had it coming to them?

You are trying to justify your delight at the misfortune of France; it’s obvious and paints you in a bad light.

Its simply amazing that you are referring to 60 million people as "France", these are 60 million bakers, plumpers, post workers, lawyer, doctors, homemakers etc Each different with different points of view and experience. It’s just not rational to lump them in as "France" and state they had it coming to them. The 70 year old man that got killed, what did he do wrong? Being part of France I expect - its simply Schadenfreude no matter how you try and dress it.
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11-09-2005 08:21 PM  14 years ago
Stet

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Key Largo FL

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yeah, everybody was behind us until push came to shove and the phoney UN resolutions were to be enforced.

America is no more hated now than it was during Reagan, or even Carter for that matter. Nothing new.

Ed, you are speaking to the core of French culture. That is a French issue, and it is prima facia.

And while the UK was setting up these great programs, Mr Hooks-for-hands was busy building Jihad.

I do not for a minute give any credibility to these so called Muslim leaders who speak out of both sides of their mouths. We have seen a lot of them here who are on TV saying the right things only to be exposed later as supporters of Hamas etc.

And issuing local "fatwas" for everyone to play nice nice only reminds me of the whole "fatwa" against Isrea, the US and Salman Rushdie.

Rushdie translated into Persian means "man in a hurry to die"

That's my insensitive joke for the day
keepin' it real
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11-09-2005 08:41 PM  14 years ago
Ed Moore

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West Sussex, UK

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America is no more hated now than it was during Reagan, or even Carter for that matter. Nothing new.
Hoho! Steady on there cowboy. When most people say 'anti US' nowadays they mean anti-Bush, and I can assure you that there was never anything approaching this during the previous administration. This is 'new'.
And while the UK was setting up these great programs, Mr Hooks-for-hands was busy building Jihad.
Well yes he was, but no one was really listening to him untill Iraq when he had some tangible vehicule with which to spread his anti-west vitriol.
I do not for a minute give any credibility to these so called Muslim leaders who speak out of both sides of their mouths.
Neither do I. Thankfully they are not the hundreds of comminity leaders who work on local issues with the authorities. Like I keep saying, and like you keep ignoring, these riots are about improving their day-to-day lives, rather than any large ideological concern.
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11-09-2005 08:41 PM  14 years ago
classic

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I wonder how France is dealing with these riots after that really big fire they had?

You know the one,
Where Their white flag factory burned to the ground basically crippling their military and raising the terror level from "RUN" to "HIDE"


sorry, I couldn't resist, you guys were getting so serious
Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!
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11-09-2005 09:50 PM  14 years ago
Sceadu Flyer

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Horseheads, NY

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Dankers,

Thanks, and I believe that you "hit the nail squarely on the head" with that last post! It seems that Islam and/or extremeisim is as you said a last resort that people gravitate towards when they feel they are out of options!

Yet, Extreme Rc Helis are completely appropriate and encouraged!!!!!!!!!!
Fly it like you stole it!
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11-09-2005 10:18 PM  14 years ago
JitsuGuy

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Tulsa, Oklahoma

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Are you seriously saying WMD's were shipped away prior to the war and that Saddam was a threat to the Western world?

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11-09-2005 10:21 PM  14 years ago
Stet

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Key Largo FL

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Wake up to 12 years of UN sanctions based on WMD compliance Jitsu

Wake up to scuds landing in Isreal

Wake up to the invasion of Kuwait

Wake up to the massacre of Kurds with poison gas

Tell me then, why were the UN sanctions in place?

Did Iraq comply with the terms of the cease fire from Gulf 1?


Some believe KSM was Iraqi intel, no one has proved otherwise.


But according to you, some big multinational Cheney-esque shadow group is funding terrorism, so that they can take over the free world.
keepin' it real
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11-09-2005 10:32 PM  14 years ago
Stet

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Key Largo FL

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Sadam funded suicide bombers in Isreal, fact. That is a threat to the western world, if you consider Isreal part of the west (culturally at least)

Plenty was moved across the border to Syria before and at the onset of the war.

Probably the biggest American failure was not to secure that border at the onset of the war.
keepin' it real
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11-09-2005 11:11 PM  14 years ago
Stet

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Key Largo FL

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Ed, this is new?

You must not have been around when Reagan installed Pershing II missles into Western Europe. And all of his cowboy talk, how dare he challenge the Iron Curtain?

And maybe you weren't around when the Iranians took our embassy hostage for more than 400 days.

And what about the Vietnam war?

No this is nothing new. It's just treated as if it were for emphasis.

UPDATE:

France is DEPORTING rioters, illegal or non-citizen (with valid visas)

I am sure they will enjoy their lives back at "home" much more. No free housing there.

And this just in:

The number of cars set alight across France overnight Tuesday to Wednesday fell to 617, hundreds fewer than the night before.

Gee, 617 cars? That's all? Man, things are sure improving.
keepin' it real
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