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10-31-2005 03:30 AM  14 years ago
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Cranium

rrApprentice

Orlando, FL

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Tiger 50 or Raptor V2?
I just went to my LHS a few days ago to talk about my next heli. I have 2 shoguns which I'm going to be selling to purchase a nitro.

I was looking at either a Trex Superior (not released yet) or a Raptor before I went in but happened to run into John Beech. My hour lunch break turned into a 3 hour break from work . :P We (John Beech and the shop employees) started talking about the Tiger 50 and then with the help of some employees we put a Tiger 50, Raptor 50 V2 and a Sceadu with CCPM next to each other on the counter and started comparing.

I have to admit that the CCPM seems like an easier setup to maintain with fewer linkages and pivots. More pivots and linkages does seem to add more mass and friction to move and slow down. Is there a downside to having CCPM?

Another thing that was pointed out was the flexibility of swashplate arm on the Raptor compared to the other two. The Raptor's seemed so flimsy. Are there any parts that would need to be upgraded or modded to make the Tiger 50 a really good flying machine?

Are there any bearing issues with the larger bearings in the Tiger 50?

The rubber dampeners on the fuel tank of the Tiger also seems great to isolate vibration.

I've started reading up on the Tiger 50 from the magaizine articles referenced from their website and will also be going through the owners manual.

The Sceadu was a very nice CCPM setup as well but it was the most costly of the 3 and the CCPM was a mod.

Costwise they seem to be pretty much even given that the Raptor comes with CF blades and a pipe.

So now I'm torn between the Raptor and Tiger. After speaking with my LHS and the guys in the Raptor forum I'm leaning more towards a Raptor because it's so popular and it will be my first nitro heli so I hesitate to get something not mainstream. I won't be purchasing for another week or two (depends on how long it takes to sell the Shoguns) so have ample time to do more research and get feedback.
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10-31-2005 04:06 AM  14 years ago
darkfa8

rrElite Veteran

Brick, NJ - USA

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About your questions, though I'm sure John will glady advise as well...

The Tiger flies great out of the box and by following the exacting setup procedures clearly outlined in it's excelent manual. You can check out the manual on the Audacity site or at the hobby shop and compair that to the others as well.

The only bearings I've replaced were the main shaft bearings due to a crash. The top one was notchy, the bottom one was ok, but I replaced both anyway.

The larger bearings are a good thing since they can handle more load then the smaller bearings. They have more surface area on which loads can be distributed.

I agree that the Raptor has a strong following, it's sorta like the Mustang of the heli world.. it's not perfect, but it does what it's advertised to do and at a relatively economic price and the aftermarket support is huge...

The Tiger 50 is the underdog by default since it's new and personally, until some people started talking about it on here, I had never even heard of John or Audacity.

Sometimes being different has it's advantages.

Somethine else I'd like to mention is that on several occassions John has called me, personally on my cell phone to say, "hello" and check on my flying. I've tried to push to get my LHS's to carry parts so I don't have to mail order all the time, despite that I'm willing to stick with with John, and the Tiger since John treats like more then just a customer, he treats you like a friend.

Granted, he's gotta make a living, but in concurrance with the press reviews, John isn't trying to sell lies about his product. It really does live upto what all it's proponents say it does and does it well.

...and, when I have the man behind the American distribution of this product calling me on my cell phone to see how I'm doing and what he can do to help me get in the air or make his product better, well, despite the Raptor being as popular as it is, I haven't heard of people from Thunder Tiger calling it's customers up to check on how they're doing and wht they can do to improve their product.

By the way, I'm no pro pilot. I've got about 65 flights in since January of this year. I'm just a regular guy who is really appreciative and supportive of companies and people who actually care about what their customers think and feel about their product.

I wish all businesses worked like this.

Anyhow, that's my sentiment. Maybe some day I'll get to meet John, shake his hand and personally thank him for making me feel important.
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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10-31-2005 04:38 AM  14 years ago
jvanscoyk

rrVeteran

Tucson, AZ

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I have to concur with Dan.

I go against the grain here in Tucson. I have 4 different helicopters, none of them Raptors.

I always read that you should buy what everyone else has so that you can get help from fellow modelers. Personally I think that's a bunch of bunk.

To begin with I have been flying r/c airplanes going on 28 years. All modelers that I ever ran into were always willing to lend a hand. I use the airplane analogy because there are SOOOO many choices out there for airplanes but deep down the principles are all the same.

The same holds true for helis. They all rely on the same laws of physics to make them fly. A helicopter whether it be a Raptor, EVO, Stratus or Tiger. If I know how to get a Stratus or an EVO to fly properly I should be able to help you get your Tiger flying properly.

The problem I have is that some people have a loyalty to a particular brand of heli and that loyalty blinds them to what this hobby is about.
I personally have come across people who would not help me because I flew with a JR radio and not a Futaba. That's not what this hobby is about.

So of course you are going to get Pro-Tiger answers here on this forum. What you won't get here is the anti-social behavior towards someone who flies something other than a Tiger.

All I can say is that you are in good hands if you get a Tiger. While there may not be huge numbers of them flying(yet), there is a good community here willing to help you.

Jim
must go faster, must go faster.........
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10-31-2005 05:13 AM  14 years ago
Cranium

rrApprentice

Orlando, FL

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One thing that was brought up in the Raptor forum that got me thinking was the this:
You'll notice that the Fury, Stratus, Vigor CS, Vibe and eCCPM X-Spec all use bell cranks but still utilize eCCPM. This is because the wear and tear on the servos is less and when done properly there is very little slop in the system (less than the direct servo-to-swashplate setup..the large and direct servo wheels exaggerate slop, bell cranks absorb some of it). eCCPM on the mentioned machines will not wear the servos as quick as the tiger will due to the fact that rotor head/swash vibs are fed into bell cranks and the frame before they get to the servo.
Any truth to this that you guys have seen?

Thanks,

Richard
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10-31-2005 06:27 AM  14 years ago
HUTCH964

rrKey Veteran

Taylor,Texas 76574 local airport T74

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Buy what you want & be Happy with it !
But you can't beat a Raptor of any SIZE !

*****
Tim
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10-31-2005 10:39 AM  14 years ago
hootowl

rrProfessor

Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Servo durability:

Does anyone have any hard data?
To be honest with you I'm relatively new to this hobby. I have seen debates like this in other hobbies interests I have, and rage on for years over supposed failures or possible issues, without any data or proof that there truly is an issue. Has anyone proved that servo shaft supports increase servo life? If so, how much? Some say push pull is bogus because you can't load the links perfectly in order to eliminate one sided loading.

I would be willing to bet todays better servos are designed to handle the loads that direct linked eccpm machines induce on them.


Tiger or Raptor?

I was going to get a Raptor. Ended up with the Tiger just because I like playing with new designs and I wanted something inexpensive. I went through the bling thing and decided I better take it easy this go around. Flying is number one now. Had an X-Cell gasser. Nice ship but oh the wallet couldn't handle it and it wasn't very durable fo a novice to learn on.

Yesterday I took the Tiger out to our local field. The resident guru, never seeing a Tiger before in his life, never blinked an eye or had a foul word to say about it. There was almost no setup required. Pitch and tracking were the biggest adjustments. Flys solid. He had it hand off hovering within 30 seconds of first flight.

The thing I noticed about this heli it has very little if any vibration. We had no issues getting the gyro holding.

I don't see anything special about the Raptor that makes it THE heli over this Tiger. I guess if bling is your thing right now the Raptor has the most mods.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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10-31-2005 12:36 PM  14 years ago
Cranium

rrApprentice

Orlando, FL

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HUTCH964,
Buy what you want & be Happy with it !
I'm trying to make sure I'll be happy with what I buy. I had a Shogun that has had a lot of money put into it to keep it in the air and in the end, I wasn't happy with it. I loaded it up with bling but that didn't prevent in-flight failures from occuring. The joy of flying was going away.
But you can't beat a Raptor of any SIZE !
If you expect any kind of consideration from a statement like this I would need a reason. Otherwise I just consider you to be beating your chest and trying to make a lot of noise.
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10-31-2005 01:09 PM  14 years ago
doorman

rrProfessor

Sherwood, Arkansas

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Which One????
Glad to see that the rappy guys are looking in on our forum..... they must be begining to wonder why there is a new machine showing up at the field..... Thanks Hutch!!!!

As said above though... it is your choice..... any of the 3 machines you mention will make a good first nitro.... it is just that the Tiger would be the preffered machine from this instructor....
As far as the money goes, if you add a muffler and a set of glass blades to the Tiger, it comes out about $40.00 higher then a rappy, but the Tiger is an ARF and the rappy is a kit.... see below..

An example was this weekend our field.... a guest drove about 2 1/2 hours to visit and maybe get some flying tip's and just hang with our group..(we do have a lot of fun!!!) On his first flight, he had a major incident and his trusty Tiger met with an early end to the day.... within an hour, arrangements were made to have another long distance member pick up a new Tiger kit on his way to the field.... and since we were all staying at my home for the evening, we would all pitch in and get him back in the air on Sunday... and that happened as planned and on Sunday morning, we did some final checking and loaded up and headed to the field.... what we had not planned on was a wind that was gusting to about 25mph early in the day....
So after arriving at the field we set it up with a set of wood blades (included) and I did the test hops for tracking and throttle and pitch curve set up.... (Oh did I mention the wind that was slowing down!!! Yeah Right!!!) Did the intial and took it around the patch for a couple of laps and handed it to it's owner.... nervous as he was, he was in a rock steady hover and moving it slowly.... and finished the first tank of fuel..
On the second tank of fuel, we switched to a set of glass blades and I again did the intial tests for tracking and fine tuned the ptich and throttle...and set up idle up 1 & 2.... on this flight I checked and set the trims for 1& 2 and then some basic loops & rolls & a little inverted to make certain that all was OK... and then handed it back to the owner and he finshed his second tank of fuel.... (oh and the wind had slowed now to gusts of about 15mph!!!) He was back in the saddle with a brand new Tiger that was set and flew flawlessly in 2 tanks of fuel for a complete set up.... and had that "silly" Tiger Grin too!!!!
Could we have done this with the rappy.... maybe, but I doubt it..... and would it have dialed in as fast....maybe, if that were all that we flew....
The bottom line is that the Tiger is an excelllent heli to learn with.... and it will take you up to all but the hardest 3D with very few changes needed.. (the above was completely stock except for the glass blades)
As far as the "crap" about the loads on the servos in direct ccpm, I guess if your machine doesn't have it, you should try to find some reason why it is no good!!!!! Check to see what most of the top fliers are using to win the major competitions.... and remember that they are using 90 sized machines and nothing but top end equipment due to the extreme loads being put on all of their equipment.....(not a $299.00 trainer!!!)
The Tiger can be set up and flown with "sport" servo's to train with and then you can add better servo's as you flying abilities progress... and I did just that with mine to see if they really did work, and I had no problems using JR 531 Sport 50oz servos in my intial set up....
The choice is certainly yours, but consider the source when someone is trying to blow smoke at you!!!!
And yes I have owned and flown Raptors..... but I sold them and still have my Tiger and Evo and Freya and the list goes on and some are in my galley!!!! (get my point??!!!)
Best of Luck with your selection..... Stan
AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft
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10-31-2005 01:37 PM  14 years ago
HUTCH964

rrKey Veteran

Taylor,Texas 76574 local airport T74

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Cranium
Sounds like you need a t50..

If you need a reason to buy a Raptor then ask Marcus Kim why he moved from MIn. Air to Thunder Tiger Raptor.......I don't think Marcus will be flying the t50 much any more I seen him @ a fun fly and he didn't even have a t50 there to fly & with all the t50's I have seen GIVEN away @ funfly's I have NEVER seen 1 fly in public..???? WHY is that? I could not tell you but may be someone will bring a t50 to the next fun fly so I can see 1 fly there..

Maybe a Fine Audacity Rep could make the trip to Texas for a fun fly next year and show us all what were missing out on & how well it 3D's !


cranium go get the t50 & report back with a video of you flying it I'm sure you will be happy with it as much as your shogun's..

Hey anyone here have a video of them flying a t50?? post it here please... I would like to see it so I could compare it to the Marcus Kim Flight.


*****
Tim
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10-31-2005 01:39 PM  14 years ago
KennyS

rrKey Veteran

Marble Falls, Tx

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Glad to see that the rappy guys are looking in on our forum..... they must be begining to wonder why there is a new machine showing up at the field..... Thanks Hutch!!!!
Yes your right about looking in the forum, but your wrong about new choppers showing up at the field. Mostly Raptors and no Tigers
Hutch is also right, once you decide on a chopper stick with it.
As far as Raptors are concerned, They are the best! The most popular and they really fly Great.

Other wise, have fun and fly safe!

Kennys
Only Fine Helis, Hobbywing
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10-31-2005 01:44 PM  14 years ago
darkfa8

rrElite Veteran

Brick, NJ - USA

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I thought I'd address the servo load issue somewhat. In the mCCPM system like that of the Raptor there is obviously a system of linkages and bellcranks inbetween the servo and the swash plate. These linkages will absorb the brunt of a crash and typically the rods will pop off, bend or snap off a part of the servo horn. I've experienced these sorts of things with the Hawk Sport that I had and it went through some terrible crashes.

In any mechanical assembly, the more parts you have interacting with eachother where loads are applied and released, all the individual parts experience wear and tear and the cumilative amount of wear and tear over time will be greater then compaired to a mechanical system with less parts.

Here is pertinent information on the push-pull style eCCPM system as used on the Freya/Avant machine, just scroll down to the CCPM header and read:

http://www.carbonxtreme.com/Product...vantEFX/promo1/

It is a great system and well implemented, but you're looking at a $599.00 Freya at minimum without blades, oh and the Avant upgrade is another $585 if you want the ultimate.

The Freya and other helis in it's class are in the high end segment and you pay for the premium components and optimum design.

The Tiger is a high quality compromise for it's class. It makes use of a simple, but reliable system. The more linkages, bellcranks and other components you add to squeeze out the smallest nano-sized bit of precision adds to the cost of the machine.

As for any servo wear, you could prolly post the question in the Century forum since the Raven eCCPM has been around for ages and it doesn't even use any indirect linkages like the elevator on the Tiger. All thrree of the servos are directly linked by one push rod to the swash plate. I've never seen any mention or posts about servos wearing out due to the loads from the swash.

In a severe crash in a direct-linked eCCPM machine the servo gears are subjected to getting stripped. This is common, but it's not going to kill the servo. You replace the gears and go on your way.

Oddly enough, a lot of high-end machine owners have bought the Tiger to use as a beater heli (Marcus Kim is one of them, despite him now joining the Thunder Tiger team) since it's still a great flying heli at a fraction of the cost and a crash won't bankrupt them.
- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix
Lynx Heli Innovations
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10-31-2005 01:52 PM  14 years ago
doorman

rrProfessor

Sherwood, Arkansas

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God Blessed Texas!!!!!
And Stan woke them up!!!!!
Flying and having a lot of fun here too!!!!
But since you brought it up, why not check here to see how Marcus Kim does fly a Tiger..... or t50 as you like to address it....

http://www.audacitymodels.com/webvi...o_downloads.htm

And, yes, I think it would be a good thing to get some Tigers flying in Texas.... hell, I'll volunteer to go!!!!!
AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft
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10-31-2005 02:06 PM  14 years ago
HUTCH964

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Taylor,Texas 76574 local airport T74

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doorman
come on down you could be the First to fly a t50 in Texas..

& yes there are alot of Tiger's flying here......... THUNDER TIGER'S!

*****
Tim
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10-31-2005 02:22 PM  14 years ago
doorman

rrProfessor

Sherwood, Arkansas

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One More Response!!!!
Because the Evo guys can appreciate quality when they see it!!! I own both!!!!

And I am packing my bags!!!! It is starting to get COLD up here in the "great northeast".......


Still LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a great day guys.......

Stan
AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft
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10-31-2005 02:25 PM  14 years ago
HUTCH964

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Taylor,Texas 76574 local airport T74

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Stan


*****
Tim
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10-31-2005 03:48 PM  14 years ago
Cranium

rrApprentice

Orlando, FL

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Hutch964,
Why is the t50 compared to the R50 & not the Evo50 is it because the R50 is the Best machine in it's class ? Oh and if the t50 is better than the R50 why compare the two and bring the t50 in stature
Umm...If you read the topic, it was me that asked for the comparison. It appears you are just grasping at ways to slam the T50 without much basis which seems a bit childish. But that's just my opinion and I may be misreading your intent.

I am comparing the two because I was going to buy a R50 and knew almost nothing about the T50 until I ran into John last week. Now I'm comparing in order to educate myself on not only the differences, pros and cons between the two but also to get a feel on the user community. After posting in both the Raptor and Audacity forums I found I am getting a much more mature response from the Audacity forum members. I received some very good feedback from the Raptor forum but there were also several chest thumping T50 slamming posts (the chest thumping reference works well with King Kong coming out soon....anyone else looking forward to this? ).

From a purchasing standpoint I am going primarily on a choice that I think will be better for me as a first nitro taking into account ease of setup, maintenance and repair. But secondary to this I want to be part of a friendly, helpful community. I do feel I can get that type community from either however it is my contention that people who do the chest thumping affect the community as a whole in a negative way. And last, I want a machine that I can pound on and can take getting pounded as I progress with my skilz.

I'll be going back to my LHS today for perhaps another 3 hour lunch to talk and perhaps make my decision. It's going to be tough.
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10-31-2005 06:47 PM  14 years ago
KennyS

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Marble Falls, Tx

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I'll be going back to my LHS today for perhaps another 3 hour lunch to talk and perhaps make my decision. It's going to be tough.
Just some food for thought,
When you buy are you buying off the net or your LHS? Does your LHS support & promote Heli's, if so what brand or brands? What about your local flying buddies, who has the most experience and what do they fly. Make your decision based on knowlegde & support and not hunch. Then buy it and have some fun what ever it is

As far as the Tiger 50, I welcome the opportunity to see what up close and personal. I hope someone brings one into the area so we can take a gander and see what she's got.

Yes I fly Raptor 50s, Fact is I got two of them, no I am not a Rep for anyone, I fly them strictly because I want to! Plus the knowlegde base in the Austin area is excellent!

kennys
Only Fine Helis, Hobbywing
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10-31-2005 06:53 PM  14 years ago
hootowl

rrProfessor

Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Ricks carries the full line of parts.

My LHS is signing on as we speak.

I had the first Tiger50 at our club. I'm new at this. They didn't blink an eye and had her up in no time.

Don't let the scare tactics sway you.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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10-31-2005 07:19 PM  14 years ago
KennyS

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Marble Falls, Tx

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Don't let the scare tactics sway you.
I don't see anything as scare tactics here

This hobby we are in is about support of the product.
I don't mind giving credit to any manufacturer but it is not them that help me out, it is my friends and you guys off of RunRyder that give me help when I need it. Of course there is mostly Raptors in the Austin area but there is an uprising of Hirobo as well.

In a nut shell fly what you like. After all it is your money
Only Fine Helis, Hobbywing
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10-31-2005 07:51 PM  14 years ago
HUTCH964

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Taylor,Texas 76574 local airport T74

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Cranium
Cranium
I didn't think you had pull with John Beech to have the Advertisement Compare the t50 & R50... I suppose I should have spelled it out for you the comparison has been posed LONG before you asked the question HERE..


If you look @ all of my post I never told you NOT to buy the t50.….I told you I PREFER THE R50 .. But that might be changing ..... I'm loving my R90 even more each day !!!

*****
Tim
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