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10-13-2005 12:31 AM  12 years agoPost 1
MikeInMobile

rrElite Veteran

Mobile, Alabama

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Well, I am tired of piece-mealing my Quick 46 ..... time to bite the bullet.

I have had an interference problem with this machine since the day I bought it new. During spool-up or spool-down, the interference is most visible, but the interference is always present if the head is spinning. The interference manifests itself as a high speed twitch in ALL of the servos (I use JR8101 servos). Now, I am tired of having to deal with this and am going to bite the bullet and buy a COMPLETE set of ceramic hybrid bearings for this machine. Chuck at HHI and I have discussed this problem over the phone and exhausted all other possibilities.

As soon as Chuck sends me bearing list, I will lookup all of the numbers for the ceramic hybrid equivalents and go broke ordering bearings. I don't like having to do this, but it seems like I don't have any choice (I have already replaced about half of the bearings in the machine due to self-destruction of the bearings).

Has anyone else had this sort of problem with the Quick helicopters?

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10-13-2005 03:40 AM  12 years agoPost 2
ljohn6

rrNovice

Salem Oregon USA

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Yes I have had this problem with my Quick 30 carbon pro and was only able to correct it after going to a pcm receiver . After that no more problems if you are using a pcm receiver you may have a battery dumping off or a problem in the receiver antenna check it for rubbing and scuffs. If you are using a after market stubby antenna check your solder joint also those rubber ducks for your transmitter try your normal antenna if you have ever seen the difference on a spectrum analyzer there is a large difference in signal levels.
John

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10-13-2005 04:42 AM  12 years agoPost 3
MikeInMobile

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Mobile, Alabama

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Tried all of these things ..... have narrowed the problem down to noisy bearings with Chuck's help. Getting ready to replace ALL of the bearings with ceramic hybrids to FINIALLY get rid of the problem. I have had this machine since last Christmas (my girlfriend bought it for me), and it has always had this problem. I have noticed that each time I replace a bearing, the problem diminishes slightly (the problem used to be REALLY BAD, but now it more of an annoyance). I could convert to PCM, but I have 7 helicopters on that particular radio (I have 11 nitros, and 4 electrics), so the conversion to PCM could be quite expensive (the bearing conversion will be cheaper). I think that most people will just mask the issue with PCM ..... I am more of a perfectionist ...... I want to find the problem and fix it !


Glad I'm not the only person who has had this issue !

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10-13-2005 02:54 PM  12 years agoPost 4
Dr.J

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Ontario, Canada

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lJohn6,

what do you mean about the spectrum analyzer: are you saying that the standard length antennas have much better reception that the whip antennas?

MikeInMobile,

is there a ceramic bearing package you can buy for this machine and if so, where do you get it ? I will soon be rebuilding my Acro-Star/Quick60 Pro.

thanks

John

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10-13-2005 04:04 PM  12 years agoPost 5
MikeInMobile

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Mobile, Alabama

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Boca does not have ANY bearing packages for the Quick helicopter line (I guess that theey are not that popular). I am still waiting on Chuck at HHI to send me a list of the bearings ...... once I receive the list, I will compile a order package using all ceramic bearings and order it. Mine is a Quick 46 carbon Pro, so the bearings will be different in the head, but all of the frame bearings and tail bearings should be the same.

I also have a TSK Acrostar 60, but I have canibalized it for parts.

If you contact Chuck at HHI, he can get you a complete list of bearings.

Mike

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10-14-2005 01:06 AM  12 years agoPost 6
Dr.J

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Ontario, Canada

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OK, thanks Mike !

Actually, I'm only after the ones that I've had trouble with, mainly in the tail drive transmission. I replaced the pinion bearing with an SKF unit and it's been fine, ever since and as for the main shaft, I'm told the TSK supplied bearings are bullet proof.

Cool that you also have an Acro star. I plan to do it the other way around, though; canibalizing the quick for the sake of the A-star.

Anyway, I suppose it's still advantageous to have a list. I will e-mail him.

Again, thanks.

John

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10-14-2005 01:21 PM  12 years agoPost 7
Dr.J

rrVeteran

Ontario, Canada

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Mike,

it has been suggested to me that in the case of glitching, you're first priorty should be to make sure that the various parts are grounded to each other, that's there's consistent conductivity throughout the machine. If not, where the parts bolt together, you need to burnish off the anodizing and or resin to assure conductivity; an ohm meter is the best and easiest way to check.

Hope this helps,

John

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10-14-2005 04:31 PM  12 years agoPost 8
MikeInMobile

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Mobile, Alabama

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I used all non-anodized hardware when I built my Quick. I usually do not use the stock hardware when I build a kit. Instead, I use button head stainless steel fasteners. This ensures a solid unification of the conductivity plane in the machine. Chuck and I visited this issue while on the phone and immediately discounted it since it could not be an issue. At Chuck's request, I did ground the tail boom to the engine mount, but this did not make any difference.

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10-14-2005 07:30 PM  12 years agoPost 9
Dr.J

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Ontario, Canada

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Ok, Mike,

I just wanted you to know that some consider this conductivity problem a source for glitching; but, it seems you've already discounted it ... glad to know it.

Good luck with your repair and bye for now,

John

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10-15-2005 04:16 AM  12 years agoPost 10
ljohn6

rrNovice

Salem Oregon USA

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Hey Mike
For those wondering yes a full length antenna will give you better signal reception and better transmission on your transmitter and if your wondering I make my living working on 2 way radios police and fire radios. Rule of thumb longer the antenna the better as long as it is cut to a tuned length. and for Chuck discounting those screws I will respect his opinion but any metal can vibrate and create rf this is what causes glitches also carbon is a big source,Mike why can you not just use a pcm why would you need to change all?I have a futaba 9c with a mix of ppm and pcm same with my pcm 10 from jr I have two pcm receivers i use with my jr and a ppm and with my futaba i use 1 pcm and 4 or 5 ppm you can mix and match. glitching is hard to find but something on that heli is vibrating

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10-15-2005 04:37 AM  12 years agoPost 11
MikeInMobile

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Mobile, Alabama

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Stainless steel screws torqued down to 10 foot pounds DO NOT vibrate (Yes, I use a torque wrench on all of the screws on my machines). Using a PCM receiver just masks the problem ..... it does not solve it. I have 10 other carbon fiber framed helicopters, all using the EXACT same setup, and NONE of them have this problem ......... Sorry to be so animate about this, but I do not believe in masking problems .... I would rather fix the root cause of the problem. You seem to discount the fact that the resonance pattern (notice that I did NOT say glitching) is most apparent during spool-up and spool-down. This is the time that places the highest loads on rotating components. As far as the antanna, I am using a power antenna which is basically a full length antenna wrapped around a glass core. It is common knowledge that chinese bearings are cr*p! I believe that using ceramic hybrid bearings on all stressed rotating components WILL solve the problem (I have ordered the bearings). I have seen this problem on other machines and the problem has ALWAYS been bearing related.

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10-15-2005 04:39 AM  12 years agoPost 12
ljohn6

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Salem Oregon USA

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One more thing the reason a pcm does not have the glitches a fm ppm reciever is the filters a pcm filters out all none ditgital signals and a fm receiver filters most but can't make as good of distiction so more glitching kind of the like difference between data streams and voice
John

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10-15-2005 05:48 AM  12 years agoPost 13
MikeInMobile

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Mobile, Alabama

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The reason that PCM receivers eliminate glitching is that the data transmission is a digital stream of data that is checksummed. If an error is encountered during reception (the checksum is incorrect), then the entire transmission is discarded and the receiver waits for the next packet. It has nothing at to do with filters, just simple computer checksumming.

A fm receiver waits for the "shelf" of the PPM window. If the "shelf" is not received, nothing happens. Once the "shelf" is received, the receiver waits for the "shelf" to die. This is the basis of PPM modulation. The servo's position is directly proportional to the delay between the beginning and end of the received "shelf".

The problem with bearing noise is that it covers an extremely wide spectrum (10Khz - 2.4 Ghz). If you claculate all of the harmonics in this range, reception will be distorted. When using PCM, all of the "bad" packets are discarded by the receiver. When the packet is discarded, the servo does not change position. If no valid packets are received for a fixed amount of time (the time is set by the manufacturer of the receiver), the receiver will enter "fail-safe" and set the sers(s) to preset position(s).

Because of the simplicity of the PPM system, it is very easy to fool the receiver into thinking that a new "shelf" has arrived. The receiver will then start the positioning algorithm. A PPM receiver will find more problems than a PCM receiver, but using a PCM receiver to mask a problem with the helicopter is not a safe thing to do !

Remember, these machine are capable of cutting someone's head off if you lose control ..... do you really want to take that chance ?

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10-15-2005 03:00 PM  12 years agoPost 14
Dr.J

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Ontario, Canada

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I agree with all that Mike has said here. It's my belief, also, that using a PCM receiver to resolve a glitching problem simply masks the problem.

My question and wonder has been: if you already have a pcm receiver, how do you know if you have a glitching problem, given it masks the problem? Is there a way to check?

thanks,

John

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10-15-2005 03:07 PM  12 years agoPost 15
MikeInMobile

rrElite Veteran

Mobile, Alabama

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Unfortunately, there is no way to see how may packets are rejected by the PCM receiver unless the receiver enters the fail-safe condition. Typically, the receiver will enter fail-safe after about 15 seconds of total packet loss. Any properly received packet during this time will "reset" the fail-safe clock. This is why I always use a FM receiver when I setup and trim a helicopter, even if the machine will have a PCM receiver permamently installed later. This allows me to resolve any interference issues while they are visible, therby creating a safer machine.

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10-15-2005 03:15 PM  12 years agoPost 16
Quick Worldwide

rrKey Veteran

Coopersburg, PA

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Hi,


I sent you the bearing list 3 days ago please check you emails.

I can tell you clearly that the problem is either the main shaft or starter shaft bearing block bearings..Your pinion gear is most likely is spinning in the start shaft bearing block......If you check those possibilities & find nothing wrong check the counter gear bearing but I doubt the problem is there....You must pull the machine BB block out to check...

Please let me know& I will send you the bearing to replace just so we know....Please also remember that cermic ball are not as strong as the stainless ball that they are not the total answer...

I will look for your reply....Irwin

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10-15-2005 03:37 PM  12 years agoPost 17
MikeInMobile

rrElite Veteran

Mobile, Alabama

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I currently have complete set of bearings ordered from Boca Bearing. They should arrive next Friday. Once they arrive, I will check each bearing as I remove it using a lathe and sensing loop to find out which bearing(s) are generating the noise.

Thanks for the list as it would have taken me some time to compile it.

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10-19-2005 12:52 AM  12 years agoPost 18
MikeInMobile

rrElite Veteran

Mobile, Alabama

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Found the source of the interference. There is a raised ridge on the inside of the lower bearing block. This ridge contacts the sheild of the lower bearing. When the helicopter loads-up, the ridge is forced into the sheild, causing electrical interference. I found the issue by inspecting the sheilds of all of the bearings and found a long deep score in the sheild of the lower bearing. Upon closer inspection of the bearing block, I found the source of the damage to the bearing face ...... a ridge of metal that was never machined off during manufacture. Well, at least I have ceramic hybrids in the machine now, so I won't have to deal with bearing failure any time soon.

By the way Irwin, ceramic is much harder than steel (surface rigidity), this is why bearings can be made from the material. During a crash, the ceramic bearings are subject to fracture, but this is VERY easy to detect (the thing won't turn without grinding)., but under normal or extreme flight loads, they will never crack or fracture.

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11-04-2005 08:50 AM  12 years agoPost 19
helibull

rrApprentice

virginia

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ground your servos!!
it sounds crazy but back in the late 70s we were flying kalt helis that had metal gear that drove the wire drive unit for the tail i have a quick carbon pro 50 same prob. u are going thru to fix take the ground wire off each servo butt all of them together then ground to engine block or (motor mount) prob. solved e me if u have ant ques.?? short cut open receiver case all of the black wires come to the same place on the back of the board tie end there (solder) a lead 4-5 inches long from the ground side of the board then go to engine or motor mount be careful doing this e- mail me i will explain.

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11-04-2005 01:56 PM  12 years agoPost 20
MikeInMobile

rrElite Veteran

Mobile, Alabama

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The bearings were the problem ...... all is fine now !

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