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HomeScaleAircraftHelicopterScale Model RC Helicopters › Multi-blade heads & gyros???????
11-09-2005 04:51 PM  12 years agoPost 101
Jason Lewis

rrApprentice

Whitby, Ontario, Canada

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Hello Erichevy

Just my 2 cents worth (from someone with admittedly no multi time, in a model anyway).

The advice from Joel and Peter is good stuff, but I do not think that you have a chance with that current set up since we determined that you have the wrong blades. Some people have had luck with blades designed for a 2 blade flybar set up installed on a multi blade system, but it sounds like a hit and miss thing that is more the exception to the rule. The fact that even with the gyro you had no improvement would seem to reinforce this.

With the OF blades you would at least have know good flying blades and have a chance of making it work.

The other thing that Peter suggested to me is to use a governor, since you do not know your RPM this would help you as well.

Jason

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11-09-2005 05:36 PM  12 years agoPost 102
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Wolfgang
As I didn't get any answers to my questions, I took the liberty of going to your web site to see your flybarless airwolf I was sure you had.

Guess what?

No Airwolf!!!

BUT, there was.....

A Raptor built in 2001 flown flybarless really really fast

A recommendation to run 720 mm blades at 2100 rpm on a scale helicopter because thats a similar tip speed to full size.

I think your web site shows us exactly how much you know about multiblade helicopters

Zilch!

Stick to your rocket raptor

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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11-09-2005 05:41 PM  12 years agoPost 103
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Save it Peter.

You have already shown that you believe that "the best defense is a good offense".

If you don't really know why something works, the least you could do is spend the time to find out.

Wolfgang

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11-09-2005 06:15 PM  12 years agoPost 104
Cap232ex

rrApprentice

Amanda, Ohio

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Soooo,

You used a 4 blade head a mixer and did all you testing??? Come on now!!!! You have NO real world experience with the multi heads... and you want others to risk helis and $$$ on what you say.


Charles

PS. No need to PM me anymore, you can post it here so everyone else can just see where you are coming from.

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11-09-2005 06:23 PM  12 years agoPost 105
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Yep, that goes for me too.

All you seem to have done is to say the tip speed on a full size is mach 0.5 so we should run a scale heli at mach 0.5 too.

You have no idea about rpms and precession, only that one relates to the other somehow and if you go fast enough precession goes to 90 degrees, but you dont know how fast, fast enough is, or why.

You have no experience with multiblade heads, which you admit on your site, you want to fly fast and lively. Exactly the antithesis of scale flight.

You have no idea how fast Erics rotor head is turning, but you want him to go faster with it, regardless of the dangers involved.

I fly multiblade heads in many configurations all the time even to the extent of winning the Nats with one, and you want to tell me I dont know what I am talking about. HAH!!!!

Back to the Raptor batman.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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11-09-2005 09:10 PM  12 years agoPost 106
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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I'm not going to answer those kind of assumptions. If you knew what you were talking about, you would get into the technical details instead of attacking me. The data that I posted was for technical interest and input. If you are unable to take it for what it is and build from there, that is your shortcoming, not mine.

I think I'm done here. Flame away, you seem to enjoy that.

And how much of the NATS score is for technical skills ?

Wolfgang

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11-09-2005 09:29 PM  12 years agoPost 107
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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You keep going on about your technical skills, but so far all I have seen is the calculations of tip speed on the rotors of various full size helis and how the models should be the same. This gives ridiculous headspeeds so is total rubbish as far as I am concerned.

When I ask you a technical question, I dont get an answer.

As for technical stuff at the Nats, well lets see. I bought a Hirobo Lama kit, threw away the motor and drivetrain and center chassis. Designed and built my own scale chassis out of stainless steel tubing. Added a turbine and machined up my own drive train. Got the gear ratio right so the headspeed was correct and flew it with a 3 blade head and no head gyros.

Not quite in the same league as your flybarless raptor with gyros, but there you go.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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11-09-2005 10:16 PM  12 years agoPost 108
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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You keep going on about your technical skills
False, I have only cited numbers BUT you assume once again.
When I ask you a technical question, I dont get an answer
I have only heard attacks thinly disguised as questions.
As for technical stuff at the Nats...
Again, you fail to answer a simple direct question but substitute a different answer. You offer that you are a good mechanic, but wasn't this all about aerodynamics? And you accuse me of not answering ?

When you start to engage in progressive discourse instead of bickering, then I can address you.

This is why you don't deserve any answer.

Wolfgang

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11-09-2005 10:48 PM  12 years agoPost 109
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Again, you fail to answer a simple direct question but substitute a different answer. And you accuse me of not answering ?
I explained the technical stuff I had to do for the Nats. What do you want, a written test?

All the technical numbers you have come up with are garbage and you have no experience of scale multiblade helicopters.

Back to your Raptor, I have had enough of this silly discussion with a 2 gallon expert.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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11-09-2005 11:47 PM  12 years agoPost 110
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Garbage, 2 gallon expert, batman, well, colorful at least, but lacking otherwise.

Still not a word about aerodynamics.

Does this finally mean that you will quit acting like a teenager trying to protect a self image by going on the offensive?

Wolfgang

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11-10-2005 12:11 AM  12 years agoPost 111
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

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FOR GODS SAKE BOYS SPIT THE DUMMIES OUT AND GET A LIFE

AIRWOLF, you know nothing of scale, your posts show this, i dont give a *hit about tip speeds, all i want is the right head speed for the manouvers i am doing,

My EC135 will have a head speed of 1250, whereas my fury has an idle up speed of 1850, so what, ? it flies does what i want it to do, if it dont then people like Peter, modtron,and others help.

stop this arguing, and bitching, this is a hobby forum not a room for proving testosterone levels.

In you fields you both you know your stuff,

Peter and others are an expert in Multy heads, you dont fly multi heads so you cannot comment, or critise,

Peter,

why are you arguing with this dick, he knows nothing about scale, you and the other guy have forgotten more than he knows,
let him go back to his pod and boom from the dark ages

and you and the other guy carry on with you are best at doing, helping us new ones who have stepped into the scale arena learn to setup and fly our multi blade heads.

PLEASE COOL DOWN AND GET BACK TO HELPING US NEWBIES. :-)

PS- ihave just confirmed a purchase on an EC135 Jetcat turbine, yipeeeeeeeeeee

All The Best

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11-10-2005 03:08 AM  12 years agoPost 112
Cap232ex

rrApprentice

Amanda, Ohio

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Mspot72


Good call!!!! I am going and work on my BK-117

Charles

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11-10-2005 08:17 AM  12 years agoPost 113
Phil_Mart

rrVeteran

Newcastle UK

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So Mspot72 you have finally gone for a turbine EC 135. It will do you no good you know, all that smelly paraffin

BTW, if your going to fly it, make sure you use some scale air to fly it in, wouldn't want to use the wrong air molecule size

Philip Martin.

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11-10-2005 10:05 AM  12 years agoPost 114
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

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Hi Phil

Yeah i went and saw it last night,

the guy who is selling it the machine has really looked after it, it is immaculate and looks as if it has never been taken off the shelf,

without hijacking this thread the idea of a multi blade head seemed to be daunting, that along with starting up aturbine engine, but once the idea and mechanics were explained to me i am looking forward to having a go and flying with it,

others have said once you go multi head you will never go back to 2 blades plus fly bar, obviosly i have not flown a multi head yet so i will wait on the judgement with that comment.

but it is exciting i have to say!!!!!

All The Best

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11-10-2005 12:04 PM  12 years agoPost 115
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Read the build up of my EC135 on my web page. It will explain a few things to you which will help it fly a lot better.

http://boris.intuitiveit.co.uk/~peter/

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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11-11-2005 12:28 AM  12 years agoPost 116
Copter Doctor

rrProfessor

Enterprise/ft.rucker ,al- home of army aviation

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hi everyone!!!
while i am no expert, here are my experiences with multibladed heads.
i have been known to fabricate a few multibladed heads my self using parts and pieces of different brands. i have also flown a few production heads out there. i think it all boils down to blades. that's what i think makes or breakes the way one flies. on one of my home made ones, i used different types of blades and found some to do better thanothers. the oned that flew well were the heavy ones.(these done with 30 size machines) i tried those foam blades that came with the early concepts. they engine loved turning them but they were a hanful. scary better yet. then i tried some other sets but the best by far were the $20 set of stock wood blades fromthe hawk sport. they now reside on my 58D. i have since the last year or so added a little cheap century piezo to the fore/sft cylcic and now it flies quite nicely in all kinds of wind. i have also flown the century 3 and four bladed heads with the blades that are made for them and they do well, but even better with a gyro on fore/aft. this is all with a standard mix collective system so i have never needed to add the helitronix mixer. the ccpm i do have with a multi head is the 90 degree setup and putting a gyro on the fore/aft cyclic is just as simple as with a std mix. the mixer serves very usefull for the 120Degree ccpm setups. i also had the pleasure to setup a raptor with the OF head and blades and i gotta tell ya, that head and blade combo is the crap!!! this was without any gyros too so you know adding a gyro has got to make it awsome!! i then knew the praises Peter was always singing. yeah it is an expensive setup but well worth the money even though i may never be able to afford a setup. so far i have managed to keep the rotor rpm on most of my multi setups fairly slow, slow as i can get away with for a 30 anyway. on the 60's i can go a bit slower and still have some power so it looks more scale. i am not scientific at all in my measurements and calculations as i am still old school and set my helis up by sight and sound. i dont own a tach and last time i saw my pitch guage it was being used to retrieve a screw from underneath the refrigerator that that darn cat of mine swatted under there.....damn cat!
so in conlcusion, to answer Iroger's question, goahead and invest in one. if you can afford the OF, you wont be dissapointed. if you go with a vario or a century or another brand, you should have sucess with the mixer and gyros as they have worked miracles for many i have spoken to about it. have fun

drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

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11-13-2005 07:39 PM  12 years agoPost 117
erichevy

rrVeteran

Zevenhoven The Netherlands

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Guy's I'am back,
I did the rpm test today on the Hughes, came out with 1000rpm in hoover.!! My guess is that this is way to low isn't it? Suggestion??
Changed it into 1200/1250 rpm's, that's defanatly more noise!
Very sensitive on the cyclic, put expo in started with -70% and lowered to - 50%.(futaba radio)
But still,..... It feels weird, happily very little wind.
We also thought that the blade dampers are way too loose.
What effect will this create?
It seems that I can't get used to it's steering habit, little wind and even then It shoots-up every now and then. Pffft.
Who sayd: that it looks good, those 3 bladed heads but flying nobody sees the difference.
Eric.

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11-13-2005 08:10 PM  12 years agoPost 118
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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I still say keep the rpm up and, just as important, keep the weight in the blade tips. That lets you keep the rotor disk inertia up there for better control and better autos.

An increasing the rpm will square the increase in rotor inertia.
An increase in blade weight or span wise CG will give a proportional increase.

Then add pitch and roll gyros and you're as good as you're going to get without a flybar.

Anything less and you're always fighting for control.

For example, some people like to fly without a yaw gyro but why do things the hard way?

Wolfgang

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11-13-2005 08:37 PM  12 years agoPost 119
erichevy

rrVeteran

Zevenhoven The Netherlands

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What I like to know:
1000rpm in hoover.!! My guess is that this is way to low isn't it? Suggestion??
And:
the blade dampers are way too loose.
What effect will this create?
Eric.

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11-13-2005 08:48 PM  12 years agoPost 120
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Can't say much about your head speed without knowing the blade size, blade count, and maybe heli weight.

Loose blade dampers may actually help in a flybarless situation. It has a tendancy to allow blade flaping which will help in the pitching department.

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HomeScaleAircraftHelicopterScale Model RC Helicopters › Multi-blade heads & gyros???????
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