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HomeScaleAircraftScale HeliScale Helicopter Main Discussion › Multi-blade heads & gyros???????
10-13-2005 12:33 PM  12 years agoPost 21
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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I am not missing your point at all. I just happen to disagree with it. I think Joel is absolutely correct to draw his customers attention to the fact that with this particular gyro some people have had issues. Telling them that may lose him sales if they really want to use the 240 but I cant imagine it will. It may also save them some grief and I think that is absolutely the correct thing to do.

What I cant understand is why you are so insistent that he keeps quiet about these problems. Have you got shares in Futaba 240 gyro sales or something?

I can think of many things which have to work with another manufacturers products and they recommend a particular item to be used. They know what works best. Explaining that there is a compatibility issue between 2 products is the correct thing to do even if it doesn't happen every time, just tell folks about it. It saves everyone time and money telling folks beforehand that there COULD be a problem and they dont RECOMMEND the use of that product with theirs.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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10-13-2005 02:53 PM  12 years agoPost 22
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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If Joel had stated that the 240 is not behaving with HIS mixer, I would have had no reason to comment but he made what came out as a blanket statement thet the 240 was not to be trusted. That's what I had a problem with.

Wolfgang

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10-13-2005 05:06 PM  12 years agoPost 23
whirlyspud

rrKey Veteran

USA

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He said that some people had trouble with the 240. He also said some have used the 240 without any hassle. How is this a blanket statement that they are not to be trusted? I think you are the only one here that sees it that way.


Mike

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10-13-2005 05:40 PM  12 years agoPost 24
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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I think I received two or three notes over two years from people who had poor results while using the GY-240 gyro with the mixer. I don't really have enough data to understand what the issue was, other than that they didn't like how it felt. When they switched to another gyro, such as the GY-401, the GYA-352, or the CSM-180, their problems went away. Eitan didn't like it with the CSM-180, so he went to the GY-240, and he made it work just fine. Dr. Tim flys his Puma with the Helitronix mixer and the GY-240. I think this means that if you set it up the right way, it probably works just fine. Not having personally tried the GY-240, I didn't have any setup advice to offer folks, so I discourage their use for this application.
Read it again. Want to borrow my glasses? He says some folks have problems, some dont, so he discourages their use in this application to save anyone, including himself, a load of potential hassle.

No blanket statement they are not to be trusted, in fact he goes so far as to say about 2 guys who are having great success with them.

I think your problem is you read what you want to read and not whats actually on the screen.

Mike has hit the nail on the head, you are on your own here.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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10-13-2005 08:52 PM  12 years agoPost 25
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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One last time.
I didn't have any setup advice to offer folks, so I discourage their use for this application.
Because he can't speak on the topic, he "discourages" others from going there.

I can't speak about heart surgery. Does that give me the right to "discourage" others from going there ?

If you don't see the problem there, then you may be part of the problem. With or without glasses.

Wolfgang

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10-13-2005 10:38 PM  12 years agoPost 26
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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can't speak about heart surgery. Does that give me the right to "discourage" others from going there ?
It certainly gives you the right to discourage anyone having you perform heart surgery on them.

The only person who seems to have a problem is you.

If Joel does as you seem to want, and says nothing, then other people may have problems as well. Is that what you want, for more people than you to have problems?

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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10-13-2005 10:57 PM  12 years agoPost 27
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Pray tell, why is it that you keep insisting that I have a problem ?

Because I choose not to put my faith in some 3rd part hearsay about some (possible amateur) not able to accomplish something ?

If I have any problem at all, it's people admitting they have no experience but still offer their "recommendations".

I don't recall anyone asking Joel about the use of a 240, do you ?
And since neither he nor you seem to have any experience in that area, where do you figure you have any place making comments ?

The only comment that you can rightfully make is that you have no experience . . . . period.

Wolfgang

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10-13-2005 11:21 PM  12 years agoPost 28
Cap232ex

rrApprentice

Amanda, Ohio

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lrogers posted this question.
"" If using a mixer like the Helitronics unit, what type of gyros are needed?, ""

And Joel who makes the Helitronics unit reported back what problems have been reported to him by ones of us that have his unit.

And you have yet to post which gyro that you are using with your Helitronics unit? Being that you do not put much faith in 3rd party hearsay, I know that you must have one of Joel's units to be offering recommendations that Joel is wrong and that it would be OK for someone to go out and buy the 240's to try with the unit.???

Charles

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10-13-2005 11:37 PM  12 years agoPost 29
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Irogers had many questions.
The one you decided to pick was not his original question.

Either way, admitted lack of experience does not qualify one to make "recommendations".

Don't misrepresent me. I did not say Joel was wrong in his "recommendation". That question is still unanswered. I said he was wrong in making the "recommendation". There is a difference.

If Joel had said "I have no experience with the 240 and therefore can not comment on the 240" then I wouldn't be here.

Wolfgang

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10-13-2005 11:47 PM  12 years agoPost 30
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Pray tell, why is it that you keep insisting that I have a problem ?
Quite simply becuase you are the one complaining and wanting change. Everyone else is quite happy to accept what the manufacturer says.

No, I dont have any experience with the 240. If Joel tells me there have been issues, then I am not prepared to argue the point or risk something I have spent thousands of dollars and many hours building. He is the guy who designed, sells and supports the mixer I want to use and if he says there could potentially be a problem with the 240's then to buy and use them would be a bit stupid wouldn't it? So I used something else which he and many others have tested and had no issues with, and neither have I.

I am sure you are aware of the number of problems which occur when getting a multiblade scale ship in the air for the first time. To disregard the good advice of the manufacturer of one of the central parts of the control system is suicidal. Joel is the person who knows the most about the helitronix mixer and if he advises against the 240, thats good enough for me. Thats what responsible manufacturers do. Irresponsible ones say nothing and leave you to find out the bad news for yourself, and they wont buy you a new heli when yours has crashed.

I must admit I really am struggling to find out why you are taking this strong a line. What do you hope to gain from it? The 240 is $120 from Tower and the 401 is $140. To save $20 and have an inferior product which could cause you to have a wreck seems insane to me. And before you go bananas on that one, I mean the 240 is inferior to the 401, in any application simply because the 401 has remote gain adjustability.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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10-13-2005 11:59 PM  12 years agoPost 31
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Thats what responsible manufacturers do.
Not in my book. In my book, responsible manufacturers are open and honest but stop short of fabricating answers. Relaying traceable, reliable feedback is good. Making "recommendations" based on "lack of experience" is not.

Trying to justify that kind of action is not good either. Maybe you like the idea of someone else doing your thinking for you, I don't. I prefer to have the facts and come to my own conclusions. If the facts simply don't exist, then I have to work with that. Why do you think I did the flybarless experiment in the first place ?

Wolfgang

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10-14-2005 12:30 AM  12 years agoPost 32
AGRAV8

rrProfessor

Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

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Forgive me, Peter....for I have gone past the limit!
Ok, lets get it into proper context for you to understand and accept. I'll give you a couple of examples. Ready??

#1. DO NOT USE FM RX WITH A GASSER HELICOPTER. PCM IS THE BEST OPTION, PERIOD

now, Wolfgang......I have been a part of a new gasser helicopter release and testing for the past couple of years. I have answered literally THOUSANDS of PM's, hundreds of posts.....and, when asked.....will tell the novice as well as the most experienced......USE PCM. Have I used FM?? No. Am I GOING to?? NO. Why?

Glad you asked. I have LISTENED to those that have tried this in the past. MANY have had issues....a FEW have not. I am NOT about to suggest that ANYONE should putter with the chance of having a control problem. Fly a gasser on PCM. Do it, or take your chances. Does this put me in the same light as you would portray Joel with???

#2. FUTABA states in the owners manual (available from them online if you don't have a copy) to NOT USE FM with the gy601/9251 gyro/servo. That is from the manufacturer. (see the simularities with Helitronix in this example). Does that mean the gyro will not power up? Does that mean that NOBODY has ever done it? You can answer that one. What it DOES mean is there is a "percieved or demonstrated" potential for poor performance based on either CUSTOMER FEEDBACK (in the case of helitronix) or flight testing by the manufacturer or review pilots.

So. Lets cut to the chase.

Peter HAS the proper interpretation of the concept and text as given by Joel. As do the vast majority of those that have viewed this. I'm not going to say that Peter Wales' word on any issue is the gold standard all things should be judged by. I AM going to question your motive for continuation of the arguement about Joels' statement. Hence the following:

>You HAVE used the helitronix mixer with GY240 gyro's and found success with them. If so......good for you. You get a cookie. Hard to argue with a mouthful of cookie. Right?

>You find the role as antagonist appealing in an arguement that is destined to be a losing one simply because there is no repercussions to bear in the long run. OK. Some folks are like that. Open a bottle of wine and enjoy it. At least you'll have a cork and an empty bottle as trophies to your failure.

> Feedback from end users should be ignored by any manufacturer concerning performance or issues. In concert with that, manufacturers that have feedback concerning issues should NOT share this with end users and should allow the end users to find failures or poor performance on their own without redress. Is THIS what you are trying to argue for? If so, why? Only a product liability attorney would approve of such activity.....and I hope you are not one of those.....??

>It's just fun to heckle those that have a tolerant ear for ignorance.

Did I miss any?

James

GOOD guy list-39, BAD guy list-0

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10-14-2005 12:32 AM  12 years agoPost 33
whirlyspud

rrKey Veteran

USA

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"Either way, admitted lack of experience does not qualify one to make "recommendations"

The manufacturer has the right to make a recommendation for his product based on his customer feed back.

The recommendation may be right or wrong, but that isnt the point.


I've only ever tried the Csm180 on mine so far. I'd also like to try a 401. I don't own any 240's, but if I did, I bet I could make it work fine with it also.


Mike

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10-14-2005 03:15 AM  12 years agoPost 34
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Have at it James
You are wasting your time like I was. A closed mind is a sad thing and this one is firmly shut.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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10-14-2005 03:37 AM  12 years agoPost 35
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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I am amazed that so many motives have been attributed to me. I am also amazed that you are not reading my answers. Do you have a closed mind ?

I have focused on one simple point of logic and common sense. You state what you know and can demonstrate. Anything further than that needs to be kept as a question. That was not done.

If that makes you call me an antagonist, then you are the one that needs to be questioned.

I am open to any and all facts and reasonable hypothesis. Grand leaps of faith and belief in "recommendations" from one who admits "no experience" give me problems. It troubles me that you two (Peter & James) seem to embrace that.

Wolfgang

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10-14-2005 12:14 PM  12 years agoPost 36
Cap232ex

rrApprentice

Amanda, Ohio

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Just one question and it's a yes or no question?

Do you have a mixer Helitronics unit????

Charles

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10-14-2005 01:32 PM  12 years agoPost 37
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Wolfgang
I am reading your answers and trying to find a reason behind them, with no success. Your point of view makes no sense to me.....or anyone else for that matter. If you were to demand that Joel find out why the 240 didn't work, it would make more sense, I still wouldn't agree with it, but I would understand it.

Bear in mind that Joel has found an equivalent gyro from another manufacturer which is 3/4 the price. He has tested it extensively and has no problems with it reported by his customers so he recommends the use of that one.

As I see it, you object to the fact that Joel is discouraging the use of something which he knows has caused some people problems, but doesn't know exactly why they cause problems and hasn't been able to duplicate the problem to find out.

So, the logical conclusion is that if people use this particular gyro, some of them are going to have a problem. Not all of them, and from Joels inital comments, maybe not many, but some people will have a problem.

So we have 2 opposing points of view here

I, and everyone else, thinks warning customers so they have the opportunity to avoid having a problem is a good thing.

You think they shouldn't be warned and should be allowed to have the problem.

You dont make any sense to me.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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10-14-2005 02:51 PM  12 years agoPost 38
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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As I see it, you object to the fact that Joel is discouraging the use of something which he knows has caused some people problems, but doesn't know exactly why they cause problems and hasn't been able to duplicate the problem to find out.
Do you dismiss the possibility that a problem really doesn't exist ?
And because Joel is a mfg. that his "recommendations" are golden ?
Are you content letting others do your thinking for you ?

Peter, of course it doesn't make any sense to you. You refuse to look at the one and only point that I bring up. I doubt that you even recognize my point. And others continue to ignore my point also. You keep trying to morfe it into something else or look for other motives behind it. I will not meander to other questions because they are not on point of what I have been saying.

I will say that failure to see a point for what it is is the same problem that prevents some people from properly identifying technical problems for what they are.

Wolfgang

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10-14-2005 04:11 PM  12 years agoPost 39
Peter Wales

rrElite Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Do you dismiss the possibility that a problem really doesn't exist ?
No, I dont. And I guess neither does Joel, but he is not sure so rather than find out the hard way he discourages the use of the 240's.
And because Joel is a mfg. that his "recommendations" are golden ?
He is the person who has the MOST experience and feedback. To ignore his recommendations is stupid.
Are you content letting others do your thinking for you ?
I am not prepared to let you do my thinking for me!

Joel designed and built these units. No one, including you, knows more about them than he does. If he suggests there is a better device to use than the 240, I'll use it. He knows better than me....or you.
I doubt that you even recognize my point.
Now we are in total agreement at last. In words of one syllable in one line, exactly what is your point?

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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10-14-2005 04:46 PM  12 years agoPost 40
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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I am not prepared to let you do my thinking for me!
Peter, you seem willing to let Joel do your thinking for you but not me. Since I have not even suggested that you let me do your thinking for you (I have suggested quite the contrary), your thought process has gone off on a tangent.

You continue to ignore the point and try to support your position by fabricating or substituting other details. But I don't expect you to understand that. Therefore, I will no longer participate in this unfocused thread.

Wolfgang

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