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HomeAircraftHelicopterThunder TigerOther › CCPM Raptor 50 Conversion
05-03-2005 03:43 PM  13 years agoPost 1
CHamm

rrApprentice

Shellsburg, Iowa

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I got tired of seeing these in crappy carbon, so I cut one out on my cnc router with some GOOD carbon. It's not finished yet, but I couldn't resist.




Instant Gratification is as good as it gets!!!

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05-03-2005 03:51 PM  13 years agoPost 2
Saint728

rrProfessor

Honolulu, Hawaii

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Looks nice, but what size Raptor is this for?

Take Care,
Cheers, Patrick

Check the hotties in my Gallery
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05-03-2005 03:57 PM  13 years agoPost 3
CHamm

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Shellsburg, Iowa

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R50



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05-03-2005 04:00 PM  13 years agoPost 4
Saint728

rrProfessor

Honolulu, Hawaii

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How is that going to work on a R50? Is there something else you still need to make or does it fit on the existing plastic frames?

Take Care,
Cheers, Patrick

Check the hotties in my Gallery
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05-03-2005 04:03 PM  13 years agoPost 5
CHamm

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Shellsburg, Iowa

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This is just one side of the top frames. I have 3 other pieces to make still. It should look familiar.



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05-03-2005 04:08 PM  13 years agoPost 6
Saint728

rrProfessor

Honolulu, Hawaii

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Kewl, when you finish all the pieces and put them together take some more pictures so we can see how it looks. BTW, what kind or type of CNC machine are you using to cut those?

Take Care,
Cheers, Patrick

Check the hotties in my Gallery
http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/gallery/9019/?all=photo

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05-03-2005 04:13 PM  13 years agoPost 7
CHamm

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Shellsburg, Iowa

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Its' a K2CNC router.



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05-03-2005 04:40 PM  13 years agoPost 8
wisebob

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US

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nice router setup. does a lot of carbon dust go all over the place? how do you dispose of the carbon dust?

bob

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05-03-2005 08:09 PM  13 years agoPost 9
cforcht

rrKey Veteran

Chelsea in BFE Iowa

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hmmmm thats looks an awful lot like one of the xero-g upper frame sides. only in real carbon instead of the crappy kind HEHEHE



[b]heli flyer by day, custom making cnc heli parts by night[/b]

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05-03-2005 08:47 PM  13 years agoPost 10
blade3d

rrElite Veteran

New Jersey USA

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Yeah it's the Xerog carbon frames.

Blade3d
Rupert

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05-03-2005 09:18 PM  13 years agoPost 11
cforcht

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Chelsea in BFE Iowa

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yes it is but theres been a couple minor mods to it. to remove a few weak spots in the original design.



[b]heli flyer by day, custom making cnc heli parts by night[/b]

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05-03-2005 09:27 PM  13 years agoPost 12
XeroG

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USA

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CHAMM:

In your case forgery is the best form of flattery, thanks!

But I am confused, what is the problem with the carbon that XeroG uses?

This carbon is made by the same company that produces it for Hirobo, JR, Kyosho, Carbon Extreme, Miniature Aircraft and others. I would think that if this carbon had some inherent defect it would not be used by them?

We have had no reported failures of our carbon or of the stregnth of our frames to date, if you have had one I would be interested to know of it and would glady replace any and all XeroG parts needed because of it.

If you are dissapointed with the titanium color of our frames vs. black, then to each his own. The titanium colored product is about 30% more expensive than the straight black weave from which you have fashioned your frames, we also use the 'tight weave - component' grade material which is known to be stronger than that of your large weave black.

The quality of the components that go into every XeroG product is the best money can buy and we intend to keep it that way.

Respectfully,

XeroG

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05-04-2005 02:14 AM  13 years agoPost 13
James Vaello

rrApprentice

San Antonio

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Barron,

First off, this may seem like a bashing, but it not intended to be. I am simply making public a suggestion plus a few new additional ones that have fallen on deaf ears. I enjoy my XeroG and I thank you for the work that you put into it. I just think a few things should change on it.

As for the carbon, yes, CX does use the same carbon that you do, and likely they cut your frames, just a guess there. They tend to utilize the carbon on frame sets that don't look like swiss cheese, or have erroneous lightening holes. See this Tempest frame, no lightening holes, and a good use of "Bling" carbon.

As for MA, they DO NOT use the same carbon that you do. See this Spectra G

Obviously MA thought that thick weave carbon such as Chuck is using is better suited for the task on this gasser as well as ALL of their carbon heli's. I don't think it is because they "cheaped out", as being a MA pilot, I would pay for the bling if it meant it was stronger.

Ok now, as for you being unaware of any breakages in your products, or weaknesses in the carbon, maybe you should take that comment back?
I sent this photo to you describing the tray breakage on my XeroG from a 5-6 foot botched auto on April 18th via email. On April 11th, I emailed mentioning the stress riser caused by the mounting holes in this part that caused this carbon to fail. I also recommended solutions to keep it from happening.

Also on April 11th, you vouched to send a new tray "on the house". It has been nearly three weeks, and even on the slow boat from Hawaii, or China, it would have been here by now.

By the way, the G10 replacement tray I made survived the damage from the 50 foot fall from the "one last" inverted auto gone bad after two successful ones. The original tray would have never made it...heck it could not survive a pancake from 6 feet. The damage caused below is from that 50 foot pancake. I seriously doubt that G10 or large weave carbon, or even the stock plastic set, would have broken a sweat.

Here are my suggestions for improvements in certain areas. First off, the hole that is in the outer frame up front by the servo cut out needs to go. You maybe saved a gram per side, increased your CNC time, and created a stress riser in the carbon. As hard as carbon is on end mills, you could have saved some money here in your production. This broke on both sides of the frame.

Another lightened area that should not be resides on the bottom of the frame. This area broke on both sides once again. Removal of this hole will once again save end mills, CNC time, add strength, and you might gain a few grams.

As for the carbon in general. This carbon has a pretty face, and a brittle interior. These pictures show a shot of the carbon delamination. As the interior is a stacked unidirectional filler, it sheared and delaminated. Thick carbon weave typically has a weave as the filler and is less susceptable to delamination. Take a piece of balsa block and break it against the grain first then try it with the grain. You will find that against the grain takes quite a bit more force than the relatively easy snap with the grain. Same thing is happening in this plate with the unidirectional filler. The end result is a product that is less stiff and more susceptable to delamination. The second and third photos show the internal layers and the unidirectional carbon subject to shearing and delam.

The tight weave "component grade" carbon belongs on the dash of a tricked out Honda Civic.

If the carbon is 30% more expensive, and I know most people are put off by the cost of the kit, why not manufacture a G10 or large weave carbon version, reduce the cost, and sell some more kits? I know a lot of people are put off by the cost of the kit as it stands. I would also like to see the integration of a carbon bottom brace. Not having the ability to use the stock carbon bottom brace is another issue that caused this break. If it is meant to fit..I have not figured out how

Once again, I am not trying to bash, just set out some suggestions. I love my XeroG but it needs some some holes removed and a materials review.

JV

Nothing better than the smell of Camper Fuel in the morning.

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05-04-2005 03:25 AM  13 years agoPost 14
CHamm

rrApprentice

Shellsburg, Iowa

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Well said James, I had no idea of the delamination that was going on. You have pointed out some very interesting facts that hopefully will be improved upon in the future kits Xero-G makes.

As far as Mr. Xero-G goes, you have a nice product, but as with all products there is always room for improvement and I hope this will help you in that respect. I'm just making a set to help a buddy out and have no interest in cutting into your sales. I did however take out some of your lightening holes as James described. And no, this is not the same carbon as your frames.



Instant Gratification is as good as it gets!!!

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05-04-2005 04:30 AM  13 years agoPost 15
XeroG

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USA

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James:

Thanks for your suggestions and ideas. In no particular order....


No, CE does not cut our frames.

Yes, MA does use the same brand of material as those for mentioned, its just that the Spectra is using a different weave. Since you enjoy getting technical you failed to mention that the weave that gives the color is NOT carbon at all and is actually tinted FRP cloth. The plastics industry chooses to call it "colored carbon" even though it is a composite of carbon and fiberglass.

No, it is not as strong as straight carbon.

Yes, I am aware that you broke your front bed and it seems to be a weak point (in a crash) as you and I have talked about, but this thread is about cutting the frames from other material because they are inherently weak because of material choice, not because you crashed headfirst. I sent you the front bed over two weeks ago "on the house" as promised. If you read the RR threads on the frame set, I have a record of making good on my promises and sending out new frames even when the builder crashes from mistakes like putting red locktite on plastic links (softens plastic), so for me not to send you this relatively inexpensive parts lacks sense....so yes I do take offense to your insinuation.

As for de-lamination this happens in crashes and if it was a problem for normal wear and tear I would be happy to replace any items. So the question is whether the straight black weave would do this? You build one, crash it and you tell me! You also site that somehow 'filler' is a problem with a composite? Anyone with engineering background will know that the strength of a composite structure comes from the outside surfaces and not the 'filler'.


CHAMM:

You are welcome to improve the frame set any way you see fit, I can see that you are interested in strength but I fail to still see what has been achieved other than proving you are a smart and capable machinist? Again, we have had no mainframe failures due to normal wear and tear.

I agree that crash durability is important for our machines but it is really impractical for any designer to design around the crash, for if it was my number one priority I would eliminate all lightening holes as well as make it from 4mm carbon. Anyone who has designed and most importantly produced product knows that everything is a compromise, its very hard to make EVERYONE happy.

Over the year we have learned a good many things from the pilots here on RR as they are a smart group of people with good ideas. We have tried to incorporate many of the design changes into the new 600EP conversion kit and will hopefully come full circle with them appearing on a CCPM V2. But untill then we will be mindful and respectful of all ideas and sleep with "one eye open"

XeroG

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05-04-2005 05:46 AM  13 years agoPost 16
Raptor3DPilot

rrKey Veteran

North Las Vegas, NV

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CHamm....

If you don;t mind me asking.... how much does one of those K2CNC router systems cost?? Pretty interesting stuff.

Remember when flying inverted that down is up and up is EXPENSIVE!

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05-04-2005 06:29 AM  13 years agoPost 17
James Vaello

rrApprentice

San Antonio

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I did insinuate that you never sent the part. Sorry for that. I just have not seen it and wonder where it is.

You are correct on your composites when it comes to colored carbon being FRP, that I will not argue. What is incorrect is the assumption of my crash and my knowledge of composite structures. I agree most of the strength is derived from the out surface of a composite. But if you can not keep the outer skin from buckling or compressing by either resisting in compressional, tensional, or shear forces all hope is lost.

You will agree with me when it comes to the skin of a composite structure, that up to a point, the thicker the better, up to a point. I would stand to believe that a thick weave, high tow count carbon, surface layer would be stronger than a FRP layer of a much thinner nature. Orientation of fibers in the internal layers also lends to the stiffness and brittleness of a material. Just because MA uses the same brand of material does not mean that it is the same material. The stronger nature of a thicker, larger weave, and higher tow count pure carbon is more likely to stay together in a tensional moment, isn't it? The next step in failure after tensional failure is failure of the "filler" which was meant to keep it all in order in the first place.

As for the crash invloving the radio tray, I did not crash the helicopter in head first. Both crashes were skids down. Considering that I think this is a Raptor and I am likely to crash it again, hopefully the next crash will be in the same orientation, and we can discuss materials again, if I break this set.

I am looking forward to the CCPM V2 and future products from you. Can I get them in straight black carbon as an option? How about G10?

JV

Nothing better than the smell of Camper Fuel in the morning.

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05-04-2005 02:18 PM  13 years agoPost 18
CHamm

rrApprentice

Shellsburg, Iowa

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Go to k2cnc.com, they have various sizes.



Instant Gratification is as good as it gets!!!

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05-05-2005 02:58 AM  13 years agoPost 19
MobileRaptor

rrVeteran

Orange, Texas

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Just courious, what would be the difference in cost if the XeroG kit manufactured out of G-10

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05-05-2005 03:42 AM  13 years agoPost 20
XeroG

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USA

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The kit price would be maybe $50.00 less as you have to factor in that the metal still costs the same and dealers and manufactures want to make a profit. The G-10 is also structurally lacking as compared to the same thickness of carbon, It can be used but then there will be a host of new problems to solve including increase weight.

XeroG

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