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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Anyone else need a fail-safe idle-up?
04-02-2005 02:03 AM  13 years agoPost 1
gigi

rrVeteran

Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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Well, this after-noon, I dug up a hole with my Raptor 50 because I went inverted 15' off the deck without my idle-up engaged AGAIN!

Wouldn't it be nice to have a little gadget like an in-line fail-safe, with a mercury switch, that would put your throttle at like 75% open if you flip upside-down without engaging your idle-up? I'd pay money for one!

I understand engaging idle-up is done on the transmitter, and the servo doesn't know whether the normal curve is in play or the idle-up. But I'd sure like to never ball-up another heli as stupidly as this. And I'm not counting the few times I had enough altitude to recover from the same blunder.

How about we have a little fun trying to come up with a cheap, FOOL-PROOF way of saving the like of me from themselves?

My suggestion would be for a program in the TX, with a 3-position toggle swith on the throttle hold. Put it in the center (like neutral in a manual) to start, and it'll SLOWLY ramp up the rpm's when the switch is put to the off position. Give me a parameter to adjust how long it takes, from 1 to 99 seconds. And pull the switch to the third position for autorotations, with instantaneous power available when I flick the switch back to off!

Of course, leave me 3 flight modes, and I'll set them all to linear -10 to +10 pitch curves, and have 3 different "idle-up" curves! So the heli is either in idle-up, or in "neutral" (no power, so it can't get off the ground. Hehehe! ) or in throttle hold, for auto's...

Of course, I could still crash it with the throttle hold switch, but just not as stupidly as I did today with the idle-up switch.

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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04-02-2005 03:22 AM  13 years agoPost 2
rchelifreak

rrApprentice

Melbourne, Australia --M.R.C.H.C. and K.D.M.A.S.--

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that could get dangerous.
if u had a radio failure, and the heli went inverted, the "fail safe" would kick in, and u would have a high revving, un-controlable missle, flying around byitself.

*unless u had a pcm, failsafe reciever. then youd have a failsafe, for the failsafe.....

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04-02-2005 06:44 AM  13 years agoPost 3
jkelly

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Bedford, PA

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You could always try staying upright, works for me everytime.

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04-02-2005 09:03 AM  13 years agoPost 4
Evil_Homer

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Cubbington, Warwickshire, United Kingdom

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I just try to get into the habit of switching into idle up right after take off, and only switch back to normal when i am landing

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04-02-2005 09:03 AM  13 years agoPost 5
Drunk Monk

rrProfessor

Preston, UK

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Or get into the habit of putting it straight into idle up as soon as your off the deck, or even before you take off.


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....

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04-02-2005 05:03 PM  13 years agoPost 6
gigi

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Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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Ah, the web we weave....
Thanks for the tips, guys. Alas, I had gotten into the habit of engaging idle-up PRIOR to take-off, and taking it out AFTER landing. That worked perfectly well, but only until I got into autorotations, at which point I started getting into trouble. As long as I never went inverted after an auto, there was no problem.

Yesterday, I was dialing in all three of my flight modes, and when I was done, I took off, and for some reason, just assumed I was into idle-up already, since I had been flying for a good 5 minutes

The fool-proof way is indeed to keep it right-side up. But that's just not going to happen, let's face it.

I'll force myself to double-check prior to flipping, and to only do so from a height from which I can bail out!

P.S. The heli is fixed! 'Nothing like having all the parts on hand...

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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04-02-2005 05:25 PM  13 years agoPost 7
G-DAVE

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Tyne and Wear , England

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With a govenor - you can engage idle up on take off and leave it in untill you land -THAT WAY YOU WON'T FORGET !!!
Dave

If it's not fun, your not doing it right !

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04-02-2005 09:25 PM  13 years agoPost 8
BlakeMcBrayer

rrElite Veteran

Georgetown, Ky

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A good way to prevent this is to not fly in normal at all. I spool up the head in normal and when I reach midstick, I flip to idle 1 and the govenor kicks in. Once the govenor has taken over and smoothed out, I lift off and go find another reason to crash besides no throttle at negative pitch.

.

Don't come off the throttle untill you see your GOD!

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04-03-2005 06:47 AM  13 years agoPost 9
MJWS

rrKey Veteran

Airdrie, AB - Canada

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Autos can definately screw with ya. It's no fun to kick out of hold into idle up either. Pretty easy to get screwed up when you fly a ton of auto's and then decide to flip inverted for a climbout or somethin'. Thankfully I've had enough altitude on most of them to recover, typically gives the peanut gallery a few moments of excitement.

I fly low headspeed in normal and never use it. Low enough to dislike it. Like many I'm in idle1 (medium headspeed) right on take off. Flip to idle2 (ballistic) about 50 ft up and out.

The fingers are trained to do a check for 'normal' before coming out of hold as well. You just need a habit for your auto's as well as your usual flying. I guess if we were all doing aerobatic auto's we wouldn't get lazy and leave park it in normal

Mike

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04-03-2005 05:18 PM  13 years agoPost 10
groran

rrApprentice

CALIFORNIA CITY, California

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I did it just the other day, I was concentrating on tuning my engine & autos, did a flip, realized that I was in normal. Now I just do one thing at a time, it could have been disastrious.

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04-03-2005 09:36 PM  13 years agoPost 11
G-DAVE

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Tyne and Wear , England

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A good way to prevent this is to not fly in normal at all. I spool up the head in normal and when I reach midstick, I flip to idle 1 and the govenor kicks in. Once the govenor has taken over and smoothed out, I lift off and go find another reason to crash besides no throttle at negative pitch.
THERES A BIT OF AN ECHO IN HERE!!!
Dave

If it's not fun, your not doing it right !

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04-03-2005 11:04 PM  13 years agoPost 12
440GTX

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Calgary, Canada

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Or get into the habit of putting it straight into idle up as soon as your off the deck, or even before you take off.
Yes
This , this is what works for me.
My heli flys smooter in idle one because of the higher head speed.

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04-03-2005 11:11 PM  13 years agoPost 13
Ted Toth

rrElite Veteran

Myrtle Beach S.C.

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THERES A BIT OF AN ECHO IN HERE!!!
Dave and a good echo it is, outstanding advice
should be a habit for everyone
then one problem out of the loop

.

You don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stopped laughing.

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04-09-2005 02:15 PM  13 years agoPost 14
gigi

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Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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Double-edge sword...
This story has a follow-up, and it gets worse...

It was on a friday that I crashed the heli from NOT being in Idle-up... Well, the very next day, after fixing it, I crashed it again, for BEING in Idle-up! I'll explain: I always shoot auto's in normal mode (-4 to +10 degrees) and have trained myself to give full low stick when starting the auto. Well, I was inverted hovering, and I had recently replaced the tubing inside my tanks. It turns out the one inside the main tank was ever so slightly too long! It got hung up, and I sucked the header-tank dry! I had 3 seconds of warning when I heard the engine accelerating on the last few drops, and I understood it was time for a "real" auto!

Well, when I went to full low-stick, you can imagine I not only sapped my head-speed, but also dropped like a rock, and after the 2 seconds it took me to understand, it was too late to save it. So I botched it up. If I had been in normal mode, I would've been all right. Sigh...

The suggestions are good, and I already never normally lift-off without being in idle-up... So I don't have a problem until I want to (or have to!) shoot an auto... This is like the proverbial double-edge sword... I'm screwed if I do, and I'm screwed if I don't...

The idea of a low-rpm normal mode sounds good, except, in effect, you no longer have a normal mode... And on one of my helis, that's my "fail-safe" in case the governor runs away, as it's turned on in both idle-ups. I thought 7 channels were plenty back when I started...

Well, I guess we all need to come up with our system for avoiding these "improper flight mode managements", don't we... The problem is, they all rely on that weak link, us, the pilots... If one never got excited, it wouldn't be a problem. But speaking for myself, I get excited all too often...

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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04-09-2005 03:55 PM  13 years agoPost 15
Drunk Monk

rrProfessor

Preston, UK

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I'll explain: I always shoot auto's in normal mode (-4 to +10 degrees)
There's your problem. Stick to the same pitch in ALL flight modes then there is no difference. +/- 10 everywhere (or whatever pitch you want)


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....

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04-09-2005 04:24 PM  13 years agoPost 16
MJWS

rrKey Veteran

Airdrie, AB - Canada

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Even a normal with an extremely low headspeed is better than an auto.

Tough to get burned by having different pitch in different modes. Makes a good case for keeping them all the same, and flying the heli NOT the sticks. A panic 'chop' is never a good thing even if it was how you practiced your autos.

Good luck, hope you're back in the air quickly.

Mike

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04-09-2005 09:34 PM  13 years agoPost 17
Ricky.m

rrApprentice

u.k

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gigi- do you have the same liniar pitch curve for ALL flight modes??

if you don't this can sometime save ure ass!!! even tho the throttle goes to idle there will be enough to do a flip(with lossing hight) in normal flight mode as long as the pitch range is set the same as idle up 2!!!!!
do this as a must for all flight modes then there is no 'jump' between all 3modes and throttle hold then all the switching will be easier and re learn to hover with a linear pitch curve,this would have saved the heli!!!!!!

Align Trex 600N Magnum Fuel DX 'The Future' 7

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04-10-2005 04:26 AM  13 years agoPost 18
gigi

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Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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No easy way out
When I was learning to hover, I used different pitch curves in normal and idle-up. Then, I went to all identical curves to avoid the heli jumping when switching curves, unless I was at full positive pitch. Afterwards, while learning auto's, I decided to go back to a different pictch curve in normal mode, to help find -3 degrees of pitch, at low stick... Now, I'm going back again to all identical curves!

I still haven't decided whether I will setup my normal curve to allow the heli to hover at a low rpm, or whether I will set it so it can't even get off the ground! The second alternative seems more fool-proof, but of course, that could bite me in the you-know-what if I ever toggle the switch accidentally into that position while flying... So I guess not.

I have a disc lock on my motorcycle. It really *IRKS* me when I forget to take it off, which is something I do at least once every couple of months, like this morning, in fact All it takes is someone talking to me just before I remove it, and I'm done. It's the exact same thing with that #$%^& idle-up switch: 95% of the time, I do it prerfectly well. But it's just a matter of time until the next time, unless I do find a way to really prevent the "forgetting" from happening.

I'm going to sleep on it tonight, and see what I wake up with tomorrow. I'm currently leaning towards having the engine at normal rpm at mid-stick, (to switch to idle-up on the ground), and back to idle at 3/4 stick (that'll remind me to engage it before taking off!) and back to full throttle at full stick, with full pitch, in order to save the heli if I ever accidentally engage normal mode while flying. I know, I don't want to fly like that. Well, I'm not planning to, that's the point. And I'm going to re-train myself to do auto's with -10 to +10 degrees of pitch.

Don't think I'm an idiot. I'm definitely not a stick-banger, I can't stand that mode of flying. But when I crashed, it was my reflexes that took over: Dead engine meant immediate auto, which up to now, has meant full low stick! It only took 2 seconds to register that the heli was being shoved out of the sky, but these were the crucial 2 seconds I needed to setup my auto.

I need to remember it's a learning process, and take a chill pill... I'll let you guys know whether I've hit on something with my proposed "Gigi-proof" normal throttle curve... If it doesn't work, I'll just have to hope I develop the reflexes to correct the inevitable blunder of being in the wrong mode at some future time...

Another thing I'll do is to make sure I have enough height to bail out BEFORE flipping into inverted. That ought to help some, at least.

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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04-10-2005 12:52 PM  13 years agoPost 19
Drunk Monk

rrProfessor

Preston, UK

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Having a different auto curve is what caused you the problem, if you have a single pitch range, no matter what mode you are in, the stick will feel the same rather you have to think which mode you are in or where -3 degrees is. If you really want to have a different auto pitch range then you should train yourself to hit the auto switch when your engine cuts, just as if you were practising an auto. The problem there is you might be low and don't have time to flick the switch. You could also give yourself a different headspeed in normal, but not too low to take off, maybe 1650 and idle up at 1850 so there is a noticable difference when you flick the switch. When I fly, I spool up and hover, check the controls are ok then go straight to idle up before I even start to fly around.

You learn by your mistakes, so hopefully this will always be in the back of your mind so you won't do it again


Stephen

I only open my mouth to change feet.....

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04-10-2005 09:20 PM  13 years agoPost 20
gigi

rrVeteran

Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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You learn by your mistakes, so hopefully this will always be in the back of your mind so you won't do it again
Amen to that, my friend!

Actually, I have yet to crash twice the same way... And I'm at 10 on the Raptor, 3 on the Zoom, and none on the Bergen Intrepid.

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Anyone else need a fail-safe idle-up?
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