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03-28-2005 04:58 PM  13 years agoPost 1
twinsticks

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South Jersey

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Okay guys whats the hot set up for the 3 d pro

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03-28-2005 10:26 PM  13 years agoPost 2
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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Not sure that has been fully established yet........

But so far the JustGoFly motors seem to be popular (400DF), along with the PH25 esc. As usual the gy401 and hs50 for tail and probably your choice of hs55s or equiv for ccpm.

For Batteries the TP1320s work well. I am also going to try the new Kokam 740s. Much lighter, but lower flight times of course.

Good set of carbon blades will be good also.

Metal swashplate is a worthwhile upgrade IMO too.

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-28-2005 11:32 PM  13 years agoPost 3
rscamp

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Ontario, Canada

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I'm going to try both a Hacker B20-22S and an AXI 2208/20 with 4s.

BTW. What are the motor constants for the 400DF?

Rob

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03-28-2005 11:46 PM  13 years agoPost 4
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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LOL, SNAP!

Ive also got the hacker 20-22s and the axi 2208/20 and am also going to try it on 4s! Just waiting for some parts.

Although I am more interested in the axi, as I have used the hacker on the CP hummer, and didn't see any real power gain over the himax motors. I think it mainly comes down to efficiency, not power. The axi on the other hand had significantly more torque than either of the in runners. How it performs on 4s is yet to be seen.......

If ya beat me to it please tell us how it goes!!

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-29-2005 12:16 AM  13 years agoPost 5
twinsticks

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South Jersey

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How about a b20-15 L on 3s battery

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03-29-2005 12:36 AM  13 years agoPost 6
rscamp

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Ontario, Canada

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Hey Jamie. Parallel universe. Oooohhhh.

I'll try the Hacker first then switch over to the AXI. On paper, the two setups are close in performance. The Hacker has the edge in efficiency but it peaks at lower current resulting in a slighly higher RPM drop at higher loads. This tells me the little Hacker is just a tad small for this setup.

Both motors are quite poor on 3s.

Yes the AXI has lots of torque, but this torque is quickly diminished to more average levels by requiring a much larger pinion.

One advantage of the AXI with its lower Kv though is the large pinion it requires. The large pinion will be a little easier on the main gear and the higher tooth count makes possible finer ratio adjustments.

Rob

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03-29-2005 12:57 AM  13 years agoPost 7
rscamp

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Ontario, Canada

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Twinsticks.

KC's spreadsheet indicates the B20-15L on 3s battery isn't bad at all. The prediction is it would be only slightly below the performance of the B20-22S and AXI 2208/20 on 4s. The B50-18L with 4s looks terrific for slightly larger helis like the Shogun/TRex. I came close to getting a TRex and was going to go this route.

Rob

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03-29-2005 01:37 AM  13 years agoPost 8
twinsticks

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South Jersey

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How about servos and speed control

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03-29-2005 05:03 AM  13 years agoPost 9
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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the 20-15l with an 11 tooth would probably work OK. Its not much heavier either than the 20-22s.

I have a himax 2025-4100 to try also. But I feel this will draw too many amps, whick will in turn need a bigger battery, which adds more weight etc etc. Best to try and keep these things as light as possible. IMO

One thing I would like to try is a lehner 1015 motor on 4S.

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-29-2005 08:56 AM  13 years agoPost 10
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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Hi Rob,

Yes, I agree the hacker is a bit small for a 360g+ model. I have used it quite a bit on the CP hummer and the hornet2. Even on those helis the power was adequate, but nothing startling. And they were both lighter.

In flight the Axi with 3S was very impressive on the CP. What data are you using that tells you that it is poor on 3s? KCs spreadsheet?

I feel this model is going to require around 120-150w to get great 3D performance. The 100-120w motors are just not going to cut it for much more than sport flying. Which brings me to the question, how far can we push the Axi? I know many motors are rather conservatevely rated. I wonder what the max RPM of the Axi is?

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-29-2005 11:25 AM  13 years agoPost 11
rscamp

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Ontario, Canada

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Jamie.

KC's Spreadsheet suggests the AXI isn't much better than the little Hacker on 3s. At 120W/Lb, efficiency drops to about 74% and RPM drop is about 390. On 4s, this improves dramatically to 79% and 212RPM. I am using the motor constants in the database. I don't know how they compare in real life yet.

I'd really like to plug in the constants for some of these other motors people are using to see how they perform in the spreadsheet.

Some people have used the AXI on 5s and claimed excellent performance. I have done searches and found nothing on how long they last on 5s which is a concern. Right now, I'm just hoping 4s is a good compromise.

Rob

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03-29-2005 12:25 PM  13 years agoPost 12
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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Hi Rob,

The spreadsheet is good for a starting point for sure. I used it the other year for the axi in the CP hummer.

I'm also hoping the Axi will perform well on 4S. Not sure I like the extra weight of another cell though. The heli isn't light weight to begin with.......8-(

I had heard there were some problems with the axi on 5S. I feel thats probably pushing the rpm limits. But 4S should be safe.

I have the batteries coming, the axi is here, now I need my repair parts and my medusa sbec and it will be testing time!

The sbec will add some weight, but I am hoping the CC10 should be sufficient. The Axi shouldn't pull much over 10amps at 14volt anyway.

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-29-2005 11:59 PM  13 years agoPost 13
rscamp

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Ontario, Canada

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Jamie.

I'm using an sbec but I think it is made by Firmtronics. I guess that means our setups will be completely different.

I was going to use an 8T pinion with the Hacker and 16T with the AXI. How about you?

Not as much current or capacity is required on 4s, so I'll be trying some Apogee 830 cells. Hope I'm not pushing them too hard, although it was even worse in terms of "C" when I was using the Apogee 1050 in 3s configuration.

I have everything but one 2s pack, the AXI and the pinions.

Will you be using two 2s1p packs? If so, how do you plan to connect them? I'll have Deans minis so I might make a harness. I want to be able to use the batteries separately elsewhere.

Oh and I agree that your Phoenix 10 should be fine. Unfortunately there's another difference. I've currently got a 25 in the heli.

Rob

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03-30-2005 12:52 AM  13 years agoPost 14
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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Hi Rob,

Yup I'm sure the sbecs will make all the difference! Do you have a link to the one you are using?

Spot on with the pinions btw. I looked at the hacker and if I try it, it will be with an 8t. But I have a feeling the max rpm on those motors is something like 50k. So we will be getting close to the limits running it on 4S

I will try both a 16 and 17 with the axi. I feel the 16 maybe the best though.

Yes I will also be using 2 2s1p packs, but I was just going to solder them together in series, but leaving longer wires so I can still unsolder and use in another application if this one fails.

The batteries I have are the Kokam 740s. These are about 22g per cell and are rated at 20C. Under some small tests I have made they have shown to hold up really well. Even better than the TP1320s. But then I would expect them to drop below the 1320 performance reasonably quickly. But my test was done pulling 13.5amps. The Axi setup will pull less amps so hopefully the voltage stays up much longer.

As for escs I have both a 10 and a 25. I would like to keep with the 10 if possible. But its nice to have a choice. Pity the cc10 wasn't a cc12.....

I have purchased a Medusa watt meter too. This should allow me to see exactly whats (pardon the pun) happening in respect to current draw, and how the batteries are holding up. I would also like to rig up a set of digital scales to measure thrust produced too. Should be as simple as sitting the heli on the scales in idle up and input full negative Provided the skids can hold it!!! hehe

Cheers

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-30-2005 01:07 AM  13 years agoPost 15
rscamp

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Ontario, Canada

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Jamie.

Here's the link for the sbec. http://www.firmtronics.com/ The link to the sbec doesn't work for me using FireFox so you might want to use IE.

I'm not sure, but I think the max RPM on the bigger B/C50 Hackers is 50krpm, so 60krpm on the little B20 might be just fine.

You just might make the CC10 a CC12 by going to minimum current limiting.

Rob

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03-30-2005 02:33 AM  13 years agoPost 16
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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Hi Rob,

Thanks for the link. Actually I went to look at that one under a different name. BTW I use Firefox too!! LOL er snap.

I'll leave the hacker testing to you I think. Mine will probably end up in a plane. I have a feeling the axi will be the best of the two.

My batteries and blades just arrived too!

The blades look nice. They are not in production yet, but are tapered and very thin and rigid.

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-30-2005 04:57 AM  13 years agoPost 17
Hoverup

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Golden Gulf Coast - USA

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Just a couple steps ahead, but I 'm sure I'll be overtaken since I have too many projects going simultaneously (can we say multi-tasking?). Just came in from terrorizing the neighborhood with my latest set up on one of my two 3D Pro's. I mounted an AXI 2208-20 (1880kv) with a 15 t pinion(from the ECO 8 parts bin) and used a 4s pack of PolyQuest 880mah Lipo's through the Phoenix 25 (no separate SBEC was used). Head speed in the 2800rpm range (already had this chassis outfitted with the CNC SP and main blade grips from Century or I wouldn't try this high a head speed). Strapped on some L.A.Heli plastic MaxIr main blades (280mm x28mm x 17 grams each) and away we went. Gusting winds hardly bothered it and the climb out was just damn scary (spell that fun city!). I then strapped in a 4s pack of TP Gen 2 1320mah Lipo's and the tolerance to wind got even better although I prefered the way the Pro handled with the lighter 880's. Just a lot more nimble.

No going back now as the Pro Hi-Voltage and Shogun 5s birds that I have are at the top of my list for fun-to-fly helis. High voltage low current is the way to go.

Product warning label: Do not try this at home. If you do and your heli head explodes, don't call me

Cheers - Boyd
AMA 80393
IRCHA 3355
LSF 853
Major USAF
Retired

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03-30-2005 05:26 AM  13 years agoPost 18
genovia

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N UR NECK OF DA WOODS

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400DF motor: From "justgofly.com"

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03-30-2005 09:24 AM  13 years agoPost 19
wilsonj

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Waikerie, South Australia

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Hi Boyd,

Looks like you have beaten us to it! Well done. So the results are positive then?

I agree, there is certainly a trend towards higher voltages and lower current setups. Better for batteries and escs.

Those LA blades are big and heavy. I bet it was very solid in hover, although the length would put the blades over the tail blades. Which could be a problem...

Do you mean the headspeed was high for such heavy blades? As stock the Pro brushless setup runs potentially higher headspeeds than you were running. Just with much lighter blades.

What are your thoughts on not using a seperate BEC when using 4 cells? I read somewhere else that someone did this also.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards
Jamie Wilson

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03-30-2005 11:14 AM  13 years agoPost 20
rscamp

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Ontario, Canada

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Genovia/Boyd/Jamie

Gotta have the motor constants for that 400DF!

I'm a little surprised by the LOW headspeeds on these micros. When you consider a hot 50 size heli with 600mm blades might run at 2krpm, 3krpm on a tiny heli like a Hummer seems pretty slow. Someone needs to do a tensile test on the blade grips to see what they can take at yield. Any volunteers?

If you look at how the motor changes for HV (more turns of higher resistance wire) you quickly find that everything equals out and when viewed in this light, HV has no theoretical advantage. But we all know HV does improve performance. The main advantage of HV setups appears to be:

1. HV setups usually move the point of peak efficiency to higher power levels which increases efficiency under load and reduces RPM drop under load. This results from spinning the motor closer to its maximum RPM.

I think other potential benefits include:

2. HV setups have a higher maximum power delivery capability through the ESC and wiring due to the lower current. This is good if the batteries have sufficient power density and the motor can handle the increased RPM and/or heat dissipation.

3. To obtain a lower KV, HV setups often require a move to a larger motor which by nature will contain more copper reducing the ratio of resistance losses to power output.

Rob

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