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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Scale helis
11-06-2004 11:09 PM  13 years agoPost 1
dnts

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Israel

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Guys and gals,
This is a thought that crossed my mind and I wanted to share and get some feedback. It all started when I saw a local guy put his almost brand new BELL222 scale up for sale. He spent so much time building it and a month after the maiden flight, it's for sale.
Now, this made me think of the difference between scale helis and scale planks - with scale planks, you get a feeling of how the real plane would behave - this makes you want to try it out - after all, a Piper cub is not a P51 and neither a F-16. There is a point in an RC scale plank. With helis - hey, they fly the same regardless of what fuse you put on. It ain't no Airwolf when there's a Raptor 30 inside. It's more of a toy thing than an art form (and forgive me all you scale enthusiests - just my personal thoughts here). So while I would try as many scale planks as room I have to store them, I am not at all fascinated by a scale heli.
Are you?
(a scale 5-blade, turbine powered Cobra is something else, though)
Nir

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11-07-2004 12:42 AM  13 years agoPost 2
tskg2

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Wellington, New Zealand

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Like to do more scale, myself
Since I am aged (turned 50 last week!!), my coordination and eyes aren't like these young whipper-snappers that are coming to the field these days- so I'm gradually moving to a few more semi-scale machines.

I certainly enjoy seeing a smooth 3D or a F3C routine, but will never master them. I get a huge rush off of ALL these machines- and an even bigger buzz from the scale ones.

I guess in a few more years, I'll be settling for a few plastic toy heli's while I'm sitting in my rocking chair- but for now- I'm enjoying doing what I can.

G2

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11-07-2004 01:14 AM  13 years agoPost 3
wurthless

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Redding Ca.

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Same thought,,different day,,,
Hello, I'm new here, and was wondering if a "scale" heli would fly 3D just as well as a well tuned Rapture or Concept ,if it had the same power and controls. I really like the look of a well made ,detailed scale ship, but want to fly like a madman (3D). Can you buy an after market fuse and mount it on a 3D machine and fly as well ? Thanks for your time,,,,MIke

QUICK! ,,,can someone turn the gravity off for just a second,,,,

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11-07-2004 01:35 AM  13 years agoPost 4
blockatvalpo

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Reston, VA

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A scale ship isn't suppose to do 3d. The most I have seen people do with a scale ship are loops and rolls. if you want to do 3d, stick to the pod and boom. Once you have that much money into a scale ship you won't want to be throwing it around the sky. The more detail you add the greater the cost. hate to crash a $2000+ ship just doing 3d.

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11-07-2004 02:17 AM  13 years agoPost 5
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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Whatever lights your fire
I enjoy flying any sort of heli, pod and boom 3D or FAI(30/50/60/90/GS), or any sort of scale heli - detailed or sport (30.....GS) more then any planks - I can't remember the last time I had an urge to take out any of my Planks -Scale or otherwise.

The challenge of lworking on a new dimension of 3D (if you want to call my 3D by that name ), or working to make any of the FAI manouevers smoother and more accurate, or working to make one of my scalers look more "real" in flight is all adequately challenging and offers enough variety to always present me with some incentive to go fly a rotor-wing.

But, I also acknowledge that there may be different strokes for different folks. For me my "planker" strokes ended shortly after getting my first heli into forward flight 20 years ago.

Phil

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11-07-2004 02:26 AM  13 years agoPost 6
HawkNoob

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Pa

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with scale planks, you get a feeling of how the real plane would behave - this makes you want to try it out
What makes you think that a scale plane flies like a real one?

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11-07-2004 02:32 AM  13 years agoPost 7
wurthless

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Redding Ca.

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I see your wisdom,,,
Point well taken. Not really a question of "will" ,,but "why". Thakns for your help,Mike

QUICK! ,,,can someone turn the gravity off for just a second,,,,

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11-07-2004 03:36 AM  13 years agoPost 8
JimT

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Independence, OR

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I'm thinking that the real challenge of scale helis, besides making it look as real as possible, would be in making it fly like the real thing, regardless of the mechanics inside. Not an easy task. It's kinda like the pattern plankers say about one of the hardest things to learn is to make your plane fly in a perfectly straight line.

Jim

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11-07-2004 03:52 AM  13 years agoPost 9
doorman

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Sherwood, Arkansas

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JimT Has Hit The Nail!!!!!!!
Flying scale is a lot harder then it may seem and the reference to pattern flying is a very good one.
It takes a lot of skill to fly 3D and it also takes a lot to fly "scale".. They are both still flying heli, but two entirely different schools....
There is no right way or wrong way.... just get out there and do what you enjoy, and do it with whatever you want... I have seen a beautifully finished Jet Ranger hovering a couple of inches off the ground inverted.... not by me for sure, but the guy that was doing it sure looked as if he was haveing fun.... and he also flew the entire routine that he did with his X-cell Fury with this same machine...
So, yes you can 3D with a "scaler" if you want to, and you could also practice flying scale with your pod and boom, but that certainly wouldn't have the same visual effect though, now would it!!!

Bottom line is do what you enjoy......

AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft

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11-07-2004 05:55 AM  13 years agoPost 10
Dr.Tim

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Mojave Desert

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Then there is the pucker factor of Cost! The Cobra I flew this last season is worth over $14,000.00 ...It took me over 6 months full time to complete. Not for the light hearted! But, to be competitive you have to fly it, and fly it hard. Not an easy task with all this on the back of your mind! ....

From Simple minds come simple ideas! Approach Engineering

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11-07-2004 06:12 AM  13 years agoPost 11
flipped2left

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indianapolis,in.

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If you want to take a scale heli and fly it 3d,no one is stopping you! it can be done but!! do you want to have such a beautiful machine like that to end up doing the chicken dance like most pod and booms do?

a real full scale cannot do what we can with our r/c counterparts,are you willing to risk the time and $$ to make such a deciscion!! not with mine!! ken

Smile! people will wonder what you're up to!!

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11-07-2004 06:21 AM  13 years agoPost 12
wurthless

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Redding Ca.

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Gotcha,,
Now I understand what your saying. I've got alot to learn!!! And I must add DR TIM that is a top shelf ship you have there, really impressive. Can't imagine the hours spent to get that done,,,,,Thanks ya-all for your kind words,,,,MIke

QUICK! ,,,can someone turn the gravity off for just a second,,,,

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11-07-2004 02:31 PM  13 years agoPost 13
bdphil

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Dothan, AL

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One nice thing about planks is that you can have scale appearance and 3D performance at the same time. With helis, I think it's pretty much one or the other.

I've just started getting into scale helis and I think they are alot of fun. One thing I did notice is that people at most funflys (our local funflys are 99% airplane flyers) are much more interested in seeing the scale helis fly. They are impressed by the aerobatics, but most come up to me and ask about the scale stuff.

Ben

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11-07-2004 02:51 PM  13 years agoPost 14
GMcNair

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Birmingham AL

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Jim is 100% correct in his post, so I won't retype his words. I can tell you that I have seen plenty of "3D" pilots perform what is at best a chaos routine with unusual attitude recovery. I consider those pilots to be masters of the recovery, not the chaos. I have seen many 3D pilots who didn't know how to land a helicopter nose-in under power, and many who don't know how to land smoothly tail-in unless it's during an autorotation. Flying any routine well, be it for scale, FAI, 3D, or aerial photography, takes a tremendous amount of effort for most of us, and I applaud those who make the effort. Add to scale the complexity of creating the ship, and you've brought the entire genre to another extreme. No offense Nir, but history was made when Tim's Cobra graced the cover of the AMA rag Model Aviation. It surely wasn't a pod and boom! I grant you your opinion that you think scalers are no more than toys, but I assure you, most people would not agree with you. In the photo below, that "toy" on the far left weighs 45lbs, and the heli is longer from nose to tail than you are tall. And if you think it flies anything like the "toy" on the far right (a Raptor .30), then you're surely mistaken. Oh, and Airwolf was a .60 sized machine in the majority of the episodes you saw.

Greg
http://www.gmcnair.com

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11-07-2004 06:33 PM  13 years agoPost 15
Sea King

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England UK

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Greg
Couldn't agree more
with scale planks, you get a feeling of how the real plane would behave
I would suggest that you would only get that feeling after doing some research

During world war 2 how many variants of the same aircraft were there and what roles were they employed in

First off you need to do a lot of research to find out what kind of flying the real one did regardless of it being a Heli or Plank

the aim is You then Practise ,practise and practise until you get it some where near the real thing

The greatest thing a Scaler can be told is that their model flies just like the real thing

The practise side is no different for any of the other forms 3D FAI
But above all the minute you stop having fun then try something different

If scale is not for you then find out what is and enjoy it

Roger

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11-07-2004 06:59 PM  13 years agoPost 16
wurthless

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Redding Ca.

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I'm so green,,,,
I thought that if you could fly 3D you would be bored stiff flyning a scale ship. I did'nt realize the finer points involved in re-creating scale flight. Gotta do more research fur-sure. Very interested in the scale thing thou, all the scale ships I have seen are very nice looking models and coming from a MRR detailing freak background I mean that as a very large compliment to your work....thanks for educating me,,,,MIke

QUICK! ,,,can someone turn the gravity off for just a second,,,,

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11-07-2004 08:14 PM  13 years agoPost 17
dnts

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Israel

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Looks like a good discussion started here. That is exactly what I was hoping for. GMcNair - I said the Cobra is out of the scope of this discussion - and so are all the very fine scales - what I can comparing is a pod and boom with scale fuse and scale tail feathers (that still flies like the pod and boom it is) and a scale plank, like, say, a Piper cub. You can argue all you want but a scale piper cub is much closer in flight performance to the real thing than any "semi" scale heli out there. Changing the appearance of the machine does not change it's characteristics. And flying one inverted is like doing a torque roll with a piper cub - hey, it can be done but what's the point...
Anyway, I'd like more people to express their opinions. Especially those that disagree with mine.
Nir

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11-07-2004 09:27 PM  13 years agoPost 18
Sea King

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England UK

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Not trying to start an argument.......But to my mind you are trying to compare a semi/sports scale heli to a scale Planker..
I said the Cobra is out of the scope of this discussion - and so are all the very fine scales
The Cobra "and all the very fine scales" are exactly what you should be comparing the Cub with (Scale to Scale)

otherwise why not look at the semi scale /sports Cub which do not match the flight performance of the Scale Cub.they were never meant to
They are designed and built to meet the demands of People who wanted something that looked a bit like the real thing but were still able to throw around the sky at a reasonable price.
However having said that a lot of people do take this further by heavily modifiying the fuse (both in the plank and heli world) and trying to fly in a scale like manor

FYI most Scale heli's start off life in pod and boom form to trim the mechanics out Cof G etc and for trying out new idea's like making and installing Servo trays, new fan ducting, multiblade set up both main and tail Etc Etc

Roger

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11-07-2004 10:41 PM  13 years agoPost 19
GMcNair

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Birmingham AL

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I think I see what you're getting at Nir. You're suggesting that many scale helis are essentially pod and boom mechanics, and the fiberglass body is just along for the ride. In many respects, that is true, especially with the .30-.50 class helis. However, in "most" cases, adding a fuselage changes flying significantly. First and foremost is that for the pilot, the pucker factor increased exponentially. It might only be a $300 prepainted fuselage on a Century Hawk, but to that pilot/owner, the heli is worth a thousand gold bricks, and he's going to be scared to death to fly it....hence why you see so many scale ships built and either unflown or quickly sold: the pilot simply cannot handle the pressure of flying. Again, it doesn't matter what the expense, or whether it is a fully engineered kit or one that is essentially a craftsman kit requiring more than just a bunch of "who-to-call" to complete it. To every owner, it represents time and money. Don't think for a second that I am going to have an easy time with the maiden of that 3 meter Jet Ranger. Apprehensive is a mild adjective in this application.

Another factor that influences flight is wind. A pod and boom can be nearly invisible to wind, but put a Bell 222 up in a breeze, and you'll quickly learn what weathervaning is all about. Even to a .30 size heli, adding 1-3lbs worth of fiberglass, paint, and wood formers can make the heli fly substantially different, and much more like the fullsize counterpart. This is because with every added pound, you are cutting into the precious power to weight ratio that pod and boom helicopters enjoy over the fullsize birds. Don't take my word for it though. A truly eye opening experiment that any non-scale pilot can do is add 2.5lbs of weight to their .30-.50 pod and boom heli, and 3.5lbs to their .60-.90 pod and boom (bigger heli means more power, and more room inside for heavier things like full cockpits and pilot figures). Place it between the skids just a bit ahead of the mainshaft to maintain proper CG. Now go fly a couple tanks doing simple FAI stuff like hovering manuvers, NASCAR circuits, big loops, mild rolls, and approaches to a full ground stop. You'll find out fast how much a little weight can mean in flying, and then you can appreciate a little more about flying a scale ship. Before you argue the point about how the "appearance" won't change flying characteristics, please perform the experiment I mentioned. There's so much more to scale than just adding a fiberglass body.

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11-07-2004 10:53 PM  13 years agoPost 20
dnts

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Israel

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Not trying to argue either - hey, 2 years ago I didn't believe I would fly helis - came with a 20x8 prop home one day and the wife asked if now I'm in to helis... "NO!!!!" I replied, "Never helis - not for me" . Little did I know (I count as many as 8 helis to date - from Hornets to Milli 90). And still going strong. I just don't feel the urge to get a scale ship (which I do with planks). It just feels like cheating for some reason..
Put on a scale fuse, limit engine power and blades pitch, take off the flybar (or replace with short weights) and use a very small swash plate. Now it will be more scale like. It will fly almost nowhere but that is what full size helicopters do... As opposed to a real EXTRA300 doing a torq roll..
I did the weight down experiments with my first hornet. It is amazing how undercontrolled it becomes. I wouldn't, however, tie a brick to my Milli....
Nir

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