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HomeAircraftHelicopterThunder TigerOther › 80mm or 92mm Tail Blades for R50??
11-02-2004 09:30 AM  13 years agoPost 1
Timo44

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Germany

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Hello pilots I'm looking for more Tail performance for my TT R50.
At the moment I still fly the konfig. with the orig. plastic tail blades with Gy401/9254, but sometimes I notice stability problems with the tail esp. in backward sections.

Now my question is it worth buying/upgrading to some SAB CFK tail blades ?
Is the tail going to be more stable with these type ?

Which lenght do you suggest: 80mm or 92mm ?

(I'm using 600mm BBT Blades)

Thank's for your help...

Stefan

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11-02-2004 12:52 PM  13 years agoPost 2
Tom DeWinter

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Quad Cities, IL

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I'm just starting to experiment with longer tail blades on my R50.
Had a set of Hirobo 92's (very flexible plastic) on it and the tail held much better than stock or Mavrik 80 wide chord

I cut a set of NHP's to 93mm and flew last weekend. They held very well, but just felt like they were too much blade. I'm going to cut them down to 90mm and try again.

BTW, I lowered the tail fin 0.4" to help keep the blades out of the grass. Could have went more.

Regards,
Tom

Quad Cities RC Whirlybirds -- FunFly July 12 & 13, 2008 Davenport IA
Plan Now to Attend!!!

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11-02-2004 05:11 PM  13 years agoPost 3
hwm

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norway

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i use sab 80 mm and 401/9253 and they hold great in backward fligths.

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11-02-2004 06:42 PM  13 years agoPost 4
RCHeliJim

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Orem, UT USA

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I am currently looking for the answer to this query as well. I have 80mm mavrikks on right now, but they dont seem to have the holding power they had on the 30, so I am wondering what the best 90mm option would be? And if anyone has some 90mm tail blades to sell for my raptor, PM me.

Thanks, Jim



Go Fly, Have Fun!!
-Team Quick UK

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11-02-2004 07:43 PM  13 years agoPost 5
AMainMaker

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Nappanee,IN

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I use NHP 85s on mine and works great.
Jason

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11-02-2004 08:04 PM  13 years agoPost 6
AndyH

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Rockledge, FL

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Try SAB 92's the white ones. Very wide thin blade that's constant chord.

Awesome tail blades.

This hobby is like Kryptonite to chicks!

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11-02-2004 09:45 PM  13 years agoPost 7
3Dflyer442

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Apex, NC

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tail blades
Hey guys!

I am running the Mavrikk 95 wide chord carbon tail blades on my Rappy 50 and they are great! Rock solid!

Justin Costilow

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11-02-2004 10:10 PM  13 years agoPost 8
aviation

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Quebec Canada

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Tail blades
I use MAH 90, seems to do the job well

aviation

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11-02-2004 11:59 PM  13 years agoPost 9
ScareCrow_Delta

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Sebastian, FL

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80mm NHPs --- they hold well, but looses authority on multiple consecutive flips.

~~~~ Defy the laws of gravity....gracefully ~~~~

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11-03-2004 07:52 AM  13 years agoPost 10
cjw

rrVeteran

UK - Cheshire

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85mm NHPs here and they work great. Far better than the stock plastic.

Clive

http://www.cjwoods.com

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11-03-2004 09:09 AM  13 years agoPost 11
Ultra Vires

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London, England

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50 size Raptors have always sufferred from less than ideal tail authority on stock 85mm tail blades, so a decrease to 80mm will make the problem worse.

Many flyers advocate 90mm blades-these work well and seem to clear the main rotor blades. I say "seem to" as under actual flight loads they end up striking the main rotor eventually. At best you'll then need to buy new main and tail blades (expensive) at worst you'll crash (even more expensive). You may get away with 90mm tails if you run a much stiffer main rotor head with all the alloy upgrades, better ball links, stiffer dampers, and the stiffest upgrade main blades, but this is an expensive upgrade path suited only to extreme 3-D competition performers. Bear in mind all those upgrades are also extremely expensive to replace after a crash and they still don't guarantee that your main and tail won't hit each other.

Part of the reason the standard tail blades lack authority is because they are a rather soft and bendy plastic, this is excellent when you're a less experienced flyer as they'll take a few knocks, but as you gain experience they will flex unacceptably in the more demanding flight modes. You can buy 85mm carbon tail blades off the shelf. The extra stiffness and improved aerofoil section should give you the chance to improve your gyro gain and give the tail a much more "locked in" feel. One supplier I use is "Revolution Models" in the UK. http://www.revolutionmodels.co.uk 0044 161 929 0129. They have the excelllent NHP 85mm carbon tail blades (listed as "46 size") for £11.95
(EURO 17.30). Many other suppliers have them and I'm sure you can get them in Germany as well.

Try to avoid buying 90mm blades and cutting to 85mm as carbon fibre can be awkward to cut cleanly. The dust is also hazardous, and cutting the blades is likely to lead to unbalanced tail blades. The vibration this would cause (however slight) would prevent you running your gyro at a high gain and defeat the object of the exercise.

Try the 85mm NHP blades first and I'm sure you'll be amazed at the difference.

One final point: also make sure your tail boom is as stiff as you can make it-this also helps you run a higher gain on the gyro. You can buy a carbon tail boom, but again this is expensive and unneccessary. Upgrade the tail boom support rods instead. If you can, buy a 1m length of carbon tube with an outside diameter of 8mm and internal diameter 6mm. Cut this in half (my model shop did it for me, or you can wrap a little clear adhesive tape around where you want to cut, and then use a Dremel with a circular saw blade-this minimises dust and prevents frayed and splintered cut ends). You'll then find that the end fittings on your standard boom supports can be glued into the ends of your new carbon fibre boom supports. This only costs me about £6 (EURO 8.69). If I'd bought these ready made I'd have paid £19.95 (EURO 28.90). These gave me even more tail authority, and I further improved it when I bought an upgraded tail boom clamp.

Take these few simple and cheap steps and you'll tame your Rappy's tail with no compromises needed.

I wish to add that I have no connection with NHP or Revoution Models at all, other than as a satisfied customer.

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11-03-2004 01:44 PM  13 years agoPost 12
gt900uk

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Scotland

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I have SAB 92mm blades on my 50V2 tail and they work great. With the SAB CF 600mm main blades i dont see how they will hit? Looks physically might be wrong but they seem good so far. I think you would be happy with them

This Heli Will Self Destruct In Five Seconds!!

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11-03-2004 04:24 PM  13 years agoPost 13
Ultra Vires

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London, England

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My Rappy is a 50v1, and with MY machine and main blades 90mm tails are a no-no.

It may well be that some combinations of parts ARE suited to 90mm tail feathers, but as a general bit of advice I'd stick safely to 85mm as you can get all the tail authority you need if set up correctly. In any case, ANY collision between mains and tail is not only potentially unsafe, but as CF is a laminated material there can be hidden structural damage within the blades and that is a potential cause for disaster. At the very least there is a risk of inducing vibration. I know the blades can be reblanced lengthwise, but chordwise (span) balance is important too and harder to achieve if upset. On some blade brands as well the weights are built into the leading edge of the blade and extend all the way to the tip. It's simply not worth the risk of passing energy along these as it will damage the blade internals and at worst causes the weight to fly out with tremendous force. I've actually witnessed this on a set of blades constucted this way that were simply cut down from 600mm to 550mm for an R30. I don't intend to go off-thread though and start a whole thing on whether main blades can be shortened, save to say that most manufacturers do not advise it. Whether they can be safely shortened or not, ANY violent shortening such as a tip collision is a very bad idea on any blade, main or tail.

Going back to the original point though, it occurred to me that you might be using a full tail fin. Even a skeletal one will cause some weathercocking effect in fast backwards flight, regardless of your gyro.You'll need something to stop your tail blades hitting the ground though. My Rappy has a home-made CF replacement, but you can get something similar called the "3D Retro Tail Fin" from :- http://www.fraserker.com/helilessons/index.htm
By the same token, the original horizontal stabiliser will also tend to cause the tail to dip in fast reverse flight. Don't waste money on a skeletal stabiliser here as it's just more heli-bling. Just ditch-the-bitch and fly a nearly naked tail; less CAN be more on a heli

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11-03-2004 09:58 PM  13 years agoPost 14
3Dflyer442

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Apex, NC

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just a thought
hey guys!

if you want something to think about........After speaking on the phone with Alan Szabo Jr. he told me he runs 95 mm tail blades on his Raptor 50 and they work great! We all know Alan is not exactly "gentle" with his helis! This is just a thought.

Justin

Justin Costilow

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11-03-2004 10:12 PM  13 years agoPost 15
Timo44

rrNovice

Germany

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OK I didn't expect so many different opinions to this thread I've opened, yesterday I had a telephone call with my local raptor dealer an since only a few weeks he sells the mah, blades also the tail blades which he said are fantastic esp. the 90mm mah 3d .

The problem also I was thinking of is that the rappi with its very low tail could have contact with 95mm tail blades he also mentioned.

So I think it's gonna be a compromise between 95mm and 85mm.

I'll definately give you my experience after updating to the mah 90mm tail blades.

P.S Hopefully the weather will do it on weekends )

Stefan

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11-04-2004 10:34 AM  13 years agoPost 16
Ultra Vires

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London, England

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Alexander

I've no problem with manufacturers shortening their own products themselves. They know EXACTLY how the items are built and what the material specifications are. I'm also well aware that many experienced modellers will shorten these items on a DIY basis and have yet to suffer a problem This does not mean that what they're doing is safe and correct, but it's obvious a small number of them will have sufficient engineering experience to do so correctly and to also FULLY understand what faults to look for when modding the blades.

My reason for caution is that the majority of modellers will see someone else chop their blades about and think it's easy and risk-free. Worse still, if they make an error in modifying blades that are a significant capital investment, how many of them will be responsible enough to admit the blades are potentially unsafe and chuck them away? Not many! A manufacturer or a top competition pro will have dozens of blades available and the risk of having to discard blades ruined by faulty attempts at modding is a small price to pay for them. A few ordinary modellers with enough engineering experience will also know when a blade fails quality control and know not to risk using them.

Tail blades are different, t concede that due to their far lower mass and absence of internal balancing weights they can be cut fairly safely but few modellers can cut them accurately enough to avoid producing out of balance blades. The vibration this produces can be quite subtle, but is easily enough to upset the model. The mass differences in tail blades when measured statically will be too low for most modellers to detect unless they have access to specialist engineering equipment.

To call taking safety seriously "black magic" is nonsense. YOU may well be able to shorten blades safely, but your "try and see" method of determining blade lengths goes against every principle of aero engineering UNLESS you are prepared to throw out every pair of damaged blades and start again with shorter ones. The vast majority of modellers reading this forum will NOT have the skills or experience, and I think it was an important point to make. I'd hate others to go out there thinking that putting the biggest mains and tails they can get and just shortening them a bit each time they hit each other is a sound or safe engineering practice.

As I've already concede, 90mm tails may well be safely achievable, but my original point still stands-get everything else right, minimise vibration everywhere possible, select the right tail blades, use the right tail fins and tune your gyro settings correctly. Then you'll have all the tail authority you need on upgraded 85mm tail blades. If you have to go larger than this, you've compromised one of the other factors. I'll also admit that if you're running the new OS50 Hyper, up to 90mm may be essential.

Timo

Good luck with the 90mm blades but check everything carefully. Also consider whether your model shop actually stocks upgraded 85mm blades. If they don't, they've got an incentive to sell you whatever they can (within reason!). Definitely don't go to 95mm though.

I'll certainly be interested to hear how you get on.

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11-16-2004 02:04 PM  13 years agoPost 17
Ultra Vires

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London, England

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I've measured everything up.

Main blades: NHP Sport 2's custom made by NHP to 600mm and they're spot on the money from the bolt hole to the tip.

Tails: 85mm, I'll concede that 90mm is possible, but there's a problem with ground clearance on anything but the flattest of landing surfaces. Having said that, if I push down on the main blade (like happens in extreme piro-flips or even just a good old fashioned hard landing) the clearance is so small that I'd prefer not to run with 90's. Especially as (like I've said before) if everything else is right you don't need them. If I changed to harder head dampers and extended my tail fin a little, I concede that I wouldn't be too concerned about using 90mm tails, but I still wouldn't see much point to it as I don't need to. As for 95mm tails the rotor discs definitely overlap with only moderate main rotor deflection. With 95mm tails the tail fin definitely needs extending to avoid ground clearance issues.

Janek-I'll have to agree to disagree with you on the 95's as there's just no way I can see any reason to risk running a set-up that risks collisions between mains and tails. Safety apart, the cost of good CF blades is such that I'm reluctant to consider them as consumable items in the same way that I treat my woodies.

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11-16-2004 02:09 PM  13 years agoPost 18
Raptor Rulezzz

rrKey Veteran

Rockanje, Zuid-Holland - The Netherlands

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I use 92mm Carbon Tech`s... the extra wide chord 60/90 version and there great..... can`t get them to hit while flying, not even in the most demanding manouvres.... I CAN get them to hit during bumpy auto`s... but just stopped doing those (the bumpy ones that is. )

I think Colin`s problem is that he likes lighting fast cyclics..

But to be safe the 85mm NHP`s work fine but the CT 92mm work just a tad better

Cheers,

Rich


My setup:

R50V2 XeroG frameset + full metal head
TT600 & CT 92mm tailblades, running a headspead of 2000 rpm
3x 9252, GY601/9251, TJpro/9253



Proud Member of Team QuickUK, Team Duralite & Sponsored by V-blades & 4rc.nl

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11-16-2004 08:53 PM  13 years agoPost 19
scotter

rrApprentice

Winston-Salem, NC

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A couple of us in our flying club (Delaware RC club) have experimented a bit with different tailblades for the R50V2. Our measuring stick has been performance in backwards flight (i.e. not blowing out, holding the tail well in moderately fast backwards flight), and ability to hold the tail during an inverted auto with a flip to a backwards sliding landing. We are flying two different machines, one with CSM540 gyro and a 9253, and the other with a 401/9253 combination. We started out with the Sab 92mm blades. These fly well, and i would have no complaints if it weren't for how easy the tips get chipped when touching grass. I'm pretty good at the inverted auto at this point with the long backwards slide, but I guess I'm not so smooth at the end, as I have had my share of ground strikes with the tail when I finally set the machine down on the ground. We ended up trying some NHP 85 blades, and they seem to hold almost as well, but they're not up to the performance of the Sab blades. I also tried somebody's suggestion from here and cut down a pair of R60 tailblades. I knew these weren't going to be that great, but what the heck, they were free. I cut them down to ~93mm. They are slightly better than the stock blades in holding, but only very slightly. With them the tail will blow out in fast backward flight. If I bring the speed down a bit they're passable. The NHP's seem to be very durable. Several mild grass strikes with them have left no marks or damage whatsoever. It would be nice to have their durability and the Sab performance. That's my 2 cents...

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11-17-2004 01:40 AM  13 years agoPost 20
Syclic

rrApprentice

Northern Hemisphere Ont.

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May I also suggest the Rotortech 85mm C/F units - no possibility of hitting them with 600 mains and they work very well.

They also make 92mm units but I cannot comment on if they clear the mainblades or not. But they are what I use on my Raven 50 with the Rotortech 615 mains and they work even better.

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HomeAircraftHelicopterThunder TigerOther › 80mm or 92mm Tail Blades for R50??
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