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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › A little gripe about high end heli's, and other RC stuff
11-01-2004 08:53 PM  13 years agoPost 21
Rick_H

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Boulder City, Nevada

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LGM Guitars

First do I agree with you, but let's look at the others guy's view for a moment.

There are a lot of fixed income flyers out there that just have enough excess funds that allow them to keep flying. Now they go out to the field like they have been doing for years and an oversight by them they shoot down a $10,000.00 jet. They could never afford this, now if they have to pay for it they could loose this hobby, their car, and their house?

With the cost of some of these models, maybe it is time to require anyone flying a model worth over say $3000.00 to buy insurance on that model or to limit the liability to of anyone causing damage to it to $3000.00. (These amounts would need to be determined).

Maybe it is time for the AMA to start providing insurance for these types of accidents to their members. It could be included with your current membership or an additional rider with an option for un-insured flyer coverage for members with very expensive models.

Just my thoughts on this subject.

Rick

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11-01-2004 09:29 PM  13 years agoPost 22
darwin

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USA

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Rick_H writes:
maybe it is time to require anyone flying a model worth over say $3000.00 to buy insurance on that model or to limit the liability to of anyone causing damage to it
Ahem, require me to get insurance because I have an expensive model that could get shot down be some dumb ass, rather than simply having the perp pay for the damages?

Yea, punish me (by having to pay for insurance) because of someone else? I don't think so. Am I the only one who finds this insulting and offensive?

LGM Guitars, I totally agree with you. What you speak of is a symptom of this rampant class warfare problem that we have in this country today. Well, in the US anyway... sure about Canada "You have more than I do! Ah, you don't deserve to have that if I can't!"

N.B. I do not have any turbines or other overly expensive models. I was simply speaking in the hypothetical.

-Darwin

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11-01-2004 09:38 PM  13 years agoPost 23
eSmith

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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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I Hear you rick but I'm not agreeing completely. You used a kind word when you referred to "Oversight" Why not reckless endangerment? Carelessness? Gross negligence?

We all have a certain responsibility before we step foot onto a flying field. At the top of the list is safety. Shooting someone down out of carelessness is not being safe is it? I do not accept someone saying "I had a brainfart, sorry my mistake is going to cost you."

Nobody is saying you can't fly unless you can afford to replace someone elses $10,000.00 jet. What we are saying is, if you do go to the field, please make SURE you do not shoot down ANYONE. Regardless of price.

If you are prone to forgetfullness, this isn't the hobby for you anyway.

Should we have drivers carry extra insurance just so homeless people can put $25.00 cars on the road without the fear of being responsiable for smashing into someones porsche. No Way. You destroy my property your going to pay for it.

When you say AMA should provide... provide what? A line for us to get in to pay more money to protect our models from morons? Not for me, I'm not going to pay extra to cover other peoples mistakes.

If you can't afford to replace someones model, you better be carefull not to shoot people down. If you can't avoid shooting people down, stay away from the fields, it's not my responsibility to cover your ass.

This isn't an elitest thing, you shoot down my $500 raptor starting up your $2500.00 tempest and you better be prepaired to sell the skids to replace my heli!

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

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11-01-2004 09:38 PM  13 years agoPost 24
Ringding

rrApprentice

Austria

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Actually I find this a bit disturbing. When you go to the field, you are basically claiming it for yourself because no one dares to shoot you down. So you are on top and only those who can afford an awful amount are elite enough to fly by your side. What did you say about class warfare again?

EDIT: Ok, the above post was not here at the time I wrote this.

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11-01-2004 09:38 PM  13 years agoPost 25
HawkNoob

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Pa

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Ahem, require me to get insurance because I have an expensive model that could get shot down be some dumb ass, rather than simply having the perp pay for the damages?
So if some poor bas*ard smashes into a Rolls-Royce by accident he should just forget about the rest of his life and put a bullet between his eyes cause he won't earn enough money to pay for it in his lifetime? There is insurance for it. C'mmon now, it's a hobby and accidents do happen. Some beginner turned the radio on by accident and shot down someones jet? That's life! There should be insurance and anyone serious enough to build a $5-$10k toy should be able to afford and buy an insurance policy for it.

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11-01-2004 10:04 PM  13 years agoPost 26
eSmith

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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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Hawk newb, I believe the post you just wrote is exactly the attitude that started this thread.

Nobody is claiming the field as his own except for the moron who insists it's his right to shoot others down and we all must be prepaired in case he does. new guy shoots down jet, new guy can pay for it. New guy can wax on all philosophical all day like a pot head on how we "all need to share the burden man... What is property anyway? peace man" Then the model owner will sue him and he will be forced to pay....THAT is life. This lazy attidude that "accidents will happen... why try to stop them... let;s just limit ourselves so they don't affect us much" Is an attempt by some to deflect responsibility.

Who are you to decide who 's model has the right cost and who's is too much.

I am not the richest pilot in my club. I do not fly the best or most expensive heli. I WOULD pay for any model I shoot down out of negligence.

I DO take the time to make sure i know who's on what frequency when I get to the field, I guess that's why I'm not concerned that I'll shoot someone down and take the side of personal responsibility.

People don't get shot down often, how often do you guy's see it? Proper pre-flight checks will eliminate the problem, not creating costs for those you think deserve a TAX on flying better gear.


-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

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11-01-2004 10:10 PM  13 years agoPost 27
eSmith

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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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One other thing, insurance for cars is a requirment and for some people having a vechicle is a requirment to get to work and what not. RC Heli's are not a requirment, they are a hobby. Nobody needs to be involved at all, we only choose to.

Your buddy better be carefull not to smash into expensive cars. Accident is a soft word for negligence. you got two choices, pay attention or pay cash. you can't sit here and cry about not wanting to pay either.

I want to fly real heli's. Should we lower the bar so that I can afford to have one and then raise the property insurance of anyone who may have property under me in case I crash and can't afford the damages I cause?

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

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11-01-2004 10:36 PM  13 years agoPost 28
RappyTappy

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Traveling the USA

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There seems to be a point of money spent to having fun ratio. If someone can barely afford a $5K to $10K heli or airplane that is extremely vulnerable once in the air, then I don't know how they could really and truly have fun out there. I think what I spend on the 90 size helis is about as much as I like to spend. Plus, for the most part helis are cheaper to crash than airplanes. If a heli smacks the ground with some grunt, it'll be probably $400 to $600 on the worst case whereas a airplane, you're probably looking at a new kit, engine, servos, ect ect because they are so vulverable and in a weak structure.

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11-01-2004 10:37 PM  13 years agoPost 29
sabooo

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Allentown, PA area

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This thread has been officially HIJACKED.

We've done the 'who pays for shot down models' thing before. Let it go...



I was going to take up Origami, but someone said the local club folded.

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11-01-2004 11:16 PM  13 years agoPost 30
HawkNoob

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Pa

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eSmith, think a little deeper into what I am saying. A guy at the field flying a $10k model is putting a very serious financial burden onto an inexperienced, unaware beginner. Just like the guy in a Rolls-Royce that gets rear ended because the road is wet and a guy or a gal behind him did not have ABS brakes or was an inexperienced driver. As far as I am concerned, anyone flying an ultra expensive toy should be mentally and financially prepared to loose it or have some kind of insurance covering it. What, you were born perfect? You never made any mistakes in your life?

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11-01-2004 11:18 PM  13 years agoPost 31
Rick_H

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Boulder City, Nevada

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I guess I started every one thinking
Yea, punish me (by having to pay for insurance) because of someone else? I don't think so. Am I the only one who finds this insulting and offensive?
I am not trying to insult or offend anyone, just make people think about both sides.

Ever hear of uninsured motorist insurance? Last time I checked it I am required to buy this insurance because of people who drive without insurance. It is an accepted practice.

I agree, if I shoot someone down I will pay if they followed the field rules for freq control.

If I had a lot of $$$ in a model I would protect myself if the protection was available for a reasonable cost. I would also purchase insurance to protect myself should an accident happen that I was at fault for. The problem is this type of insurance is not available for a reasonable cost. It would take an organization like the AMA to provide this.

Rick

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11-01-2004 11:52 PM  13 years agoPost 32
Buzzin Brian

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College Station, Texas

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The reason most insurance companies would want nothing to do with something like that is the fraud factor. It would quickly make is easier, and more proffitable to "Shoot down" a $30K model and collect insurance, than it would to try and sell it at a cut throat rate. But then again I think that way because my fiance works for a major insurance company.

Build it, fly it, crash it. Repeat as often as needed.

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11-01-2004 11:55 PM  13 years agoPost 33
pcliftonjr

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Phoenix, AZ

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Ok...let me get this straight. If I have the nerve to fly an "expensive" model, it's my fault if some Bonehead causes me to crash?

What Kinda backwards thinking is that?! If you are responsible damaging someone elses property you need to pay up.

Even if I could get insurance, after the company pays out (to me) who do you think they'll go after?

The person that caused the damage(aka the Bonehead)....Insurance doesn't make it free.

Paul

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11-01-2004 11:55 PM  13 years agoPost 34
classic

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PC,
yup.

Hasn't this been covered before? Something about it would be up to the Judge to decide who's at fault, how much at fault, percentage, ect...
Something about assumed risk by flying at a public field? Proven beyond reasonable doubt who was at fault. also,
The offending party would most likely have to admit fault.

I agree, if some jerk who powers up his radio thoughtlessly and forces somebody to crash deserves to have bamboo shoots shoved up his fingernails, but from a legal standpoint, can anything truly be done?
Hate to break it to you, but I think every time we go out an fly, we are at risk of it happening, my baby only costs about 3000.00 and I am nervous when I fly because of the threat of some parkflyer out there, but its an assumed risk I take when I go fly. I feel for you guys with the turbines

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11-02-2004 12:14 AM  13 years agoPost 35
Rick_H

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Boulder City, Nevada

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What Kinda backwards thinking is that?! If you are responsible damaging someone elses property you need to pay up.
And if they can't pay up? Does this mean they should not be allowed to fly at the field if they can't afford to pay for the most expensive aircraft flying that day? or should we only allow expensive aircraft to fly one day a week so everyone else can fly without worrying.

What if there TX was out of tune and caused an aircraft on another channel to crash. Still their fault right? You would still expect them to pay up.
The reason most insurance companies would want nothing to do with something like that is the fraud factor
How many Houses are torched for the insurance every year, How many are now in jail for insurance fraud? Would it be worth the possible jail time for a few thousand dollors. For some yes for most no.

Keep in mind though you would have to be able to prove that you were shot down before the insurance would pay a dime. So I would think this insurance would be quite cheap.

Now insurance that would pay for any type of crash would be very costly in our hobby.


Rick.

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11-02-2004 12:27 AM  13 years agoPost 36
LGM Guitars

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Alberta, Canada

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OK HANG ON!!!!!!!


Lets put it this way.....

Somebody can afford to have a jet, that is their dream, when you buy that aircraft you accept the fact that it can crash. BUT!!! you also put the best equipment you can in it, you go through it after every flight to try and eliminate every variable possible. Then somebody comes out to a club field, does NOT follow the rules by checking the board to see if anyone is on his channel and shoots down that turbine.
Now, I went there thinking that I COULD lose my plane.
You're saying if the guy can't afford it he shouldn't have to pay for it? What if I was walking through the pits, and wasn't paying attention, I step on your heli, fall over and crush it some more? Oops, I was negligent, I can't afford it though, are you going to leave me alone?
Oddly enough, most fields I've been to have a rule that says you HAVE to have your frequency pinned before turning on your radio, and IF you shoot down another plane you've bought it. There are no rules there that say I can't walk up to your heli and kick it.
As for insurance, that's wonderful, I got hit a few years ago by a woman who didn't have insurance, she "couldn't afford it". So MY insurance has to cover the cost, to me that's like saying it was MY fault! Why do I have to pay for somebody else's mistake?
Now, imagine that you are out driving, you get hit, you end up as a parapelgic, you lose the use of your legs. The person who hit you doesn't have insurance, so you sue, you get restitution of $200 per month for the next 50 years. That $200 per month is taking food off of the person who hit you's table, are you going to say "no, it won't give me my legs back anyway so why ruin their life?"

I doubt it, this world is about living for your passions and dreams and taking care of those you love. Part of life is also being responsible for your actions! If somebody hits my car, shoots down my plane, or just straight out punches me in my face you're damn right I expect them to own up to what they've done. If you are not in a position to pay out for a $10,000 model then you just need to make sure you're following the rules, simple as that.

I don't flaunt what I have, in fact, I rarely even fly it at our club field because everyone else wants to stop and give up their flying time, I go to a quiet unknown field to fly my jets, but if somebody shoots me down anywhere, I am certainly going to expect my jet to be replaced. Accidents happen, that I agree with, I just paid a speeding ticket today that was an accident, I missed a sign in an area I wasn't familiar with, I was negligent, I had to pay that ticket, if I didn't, the consequences were far worse than the cost of the ticket.

I don't care what you do in life, if you're not prepared to deal with the repurcussions of your actions don't do anything!

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11-02-2004 01:04 AM  13 years agoPost 37
Peter65

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Roxby Downs, South Australia.

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People make mistakes and accidents happen. Sorry but I tend to agree that these large planes should carry insurance. Be it turbine or just large scale.

What about if the shoe is on the other foot. What if like has recently happend someone looses control of their turbine/large scale heli/jet and it hits some poor bastard. Are you going to pay for his/her medical expenses out of your own pocket that may rise into the hundreds of thousands of dollars? Or would you be glad you had insurance? Ok so we have public liability for damage caused by our models (if you are a member).
Why can't this insurance also include accidents the other way around.

I know I pay for household content insurance to cover me incase of a fire or theft, things I may have no control over. Why is it unreasonable to have our models insured also.

You can not expect some new guy to the RC scene who has scrimped and saved for the last 12 months to buy his Raptor 30 to then hand over $10,000 any time soon. Sure you can try sue his ass but that will not get you the money anyquicker.

This is an inherently hazardous hobby.

If you can afford a turbine or large scale good on ya. But remember we the undersigned just don't have $10K in the bank account to cover these "accidents".
Of course if it's a deliberate act then screw the bastard to the nearest wall and shoot him

.

Laughing at yourself will lengthen your life. Laughing at me will shorten it...

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11-02-2004 01:07 AM  13 years agoPost 38
classic

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LGM,
Unfortantly, its not about what is "Fair". In a perfect world, the offending party would make it right with the owner of whose aircraft he dumped,
in "this" world, getting someone to:
one, accept responsobility for their actions,
two, pay for said responsobility,

is pretty much impossable. Fly at your own risk. Don't fly it unless your willing to accept the fact that it may crash due to something intirely out of your control, even if it means some idiot shooting you down. The chances of recovering actual moneys from your loss are slim to none.
Thats the biggest reason I don't own a turbine. I don't want to go to jail for chocking the livin' crap out of someone who desperatly deserves it because he cost me thousands of dollars in a spit second of stupidity.

Also, there is allways that guy who whenever he crashes blames it on someone else, motor failed, servo failed, bug in his eye, someone was talking and distracted him, ect...

Finding out the ACTUAL cause of a crash sometimes wether it is someone elses fault or not sometimes just isn't possiable to know without any reasonable doubt.

Don't fly what you can't afford to walk away from!!

And yes, I have crashed before because of a radio lockout, it happens.
And there is NOWAY any insurace company would insure these models for a reasonable amount, it just isn't fesiable for them. Everything will eventually crash if its flown enough. Just a matter of "when" not if.

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11-02-2004 01:22 AM  13 years agoPost 39
LGM Guitars

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Alberta, Canada

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So what would you say if you were out driving your brand new Corvette and some 16 year old kid hits you with his $500 mcdonalds earnings car and you find out he hasn't got insurance on it? are you going to walk away and say it's fine your own insurance will cover it? Your insurance company is still going to sue the 16 year old kid if you make a claim. But I guess that would be your fault for buying a nice car, waking up that morning, getting in it and driving it right?

Bottom line, there are laws in place to protect people, laws aren't written based on how old you are, how much money you have, what color you are, or anything like that, neither are the rules in a model club. You join a club, a society, etc, you agree to abide by a certain set of rules.

This idea of "if you can afford to buy it, you can afford to lose it" is bull. I can afford to build my jet, because of the sacrifices I made. Sure, if I lose it due to my own fault I'll accept that. I can't afford to replace it, not without some more major sacrifices, but should I be punished for doing something I love? I don't see it that way.

Like I say, if you can't afford to not follow the rules don't join the club, if you can't afford to replace somebody else's airplane make damn sure you're following the rules.
Sorry but I tend to agree that these large planes should carry insurance. Be it turbine or just large scale.
They tried this, remember the "Sport flyers group" about 7 or 8 years ago? They were toast within a year. Can you imagine if you were insuring models for loss? Every winter people would be crashing their planes to fund the new ones.
And why just large scale or turbine??? A 1/4 scale cub is large scale, but you can build one for under $1000, on the flip side, I've seen guys dump more than 2K into electric powered airplanes.
How about Quarter 40? They cost as much or more than some large scale planes? Or what about an all carbon Freya or Predator?
It really doesn't matter what it is, the bottom line is, there was a company that tried insuring models, it didn't work, they are toast.

You know, the thing of it is, over the past 10 years, I've probably given away over $3000 worth of airplane stuff to young guys who wanted to get started but couldn't afford things, hell, I'm only 27 as it is, but to me, I want people to be successful in this hobby, being successful is being responsible both for your own airplane as well as everyone else's.
Basically, if I crash somebodies plane, hit somebodies ferrari, or do a poor job on somebodies custom harley, I'm going to make sure I make it right, even if it means making some major sacrifices on my part.

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11-02-2004 01:51 AM  13 years agoPost 40
cmartin

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Kouts IN

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I dont agree with if you can afford to buy it, you can afford to crash it either but no matter what , with either a cheap foam plane or that 14,500.00 RC helicopter, unless you do not fly it , It WILL go in sooner or later and you have got to be prepared to deal with that, not saying anything new there, I think thats a given in this hobby.

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