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HelicopterMain Discussion › Exploding Vigors
04-23-2002 07:00 PM  15 years agoPost 1
DrScoles

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Redmond WA

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Why hasn't JR done a recall on these things? They have admitted (maybe not to the public, but they've told their reps) that it has a design flaw that causes the heli to have a pretty nasty failure. By admitting this, they are setting themselves up for a big problem if one of these things blows up and shoves a V-blade through someones head...

If they were smart, they'd fix the problem and make the appropiate parts available for free.

These toys of ours have the potential to be very dangerous, a product manufacturer throwing caution to the wind isn't smart when they're making things that can kill people.

Mike

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04-23-2002 07:49 PM  15 years agoPost 2
Chopper

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Stow,Oh- oops, I mean St Louis, nope Stow again,

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Is it just me....or is someone trying to start a flame war here?????

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04-23-2002 08:09 PM  15 years agoPost 3
sreuss

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Ontario, Canada

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What problem?

Now you have an obligation to tell us about this problem - so that our Vigors don't explode and so that we don't come after you!

Thanks in advance,
Steve Reuss

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04-23-2002 08:28 PM  15 years agoPost 4
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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Lawsuits

Mike, this post seems awfully low. If we start sueing the manufacturers when there's a problem, the business is just going to dry up and go away. The R/C heli business isn't that large, and the amount of money to be made isn't that great. If the manufacturers perceive that the liability isn't worth it, they'll just go back to making R/C cars for kids, and you won't be able to a R/C heli for any price. You're a rep for Hirobo, and I wonder what actual experience you have with this problem? Have you actually seen one fail? I'd be interested to know how many failures there have been total. Not just "I read about a problem" or "talked to someone who knows about a failure", but actual first hand, "I saw it with your own eyes", experience.
Be careful what you say. I've had a Hirobo heli that broke the t/r drive belt and crashed into a car causing $1000.00 damage. Would you recommend I sue Hirobo for damages?
I don't work for Horizon or any other company in the R/C business, and no one sponsors me for anything. I'm just concerned that this talk of lawsuits is poison for our hobby. If you don't believe it, try and find a new American built light plane (full size). Steve.

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04-23-2002 08:37 PM  15 years agoPost 5
Doug

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Port Saint Luice Florida....

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This kind of problem comes from pushing the envelope, which is how we learn. This area of stress is likely to be found on most machines if the flybar is restrained by structure in flight.

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04-23-2002 08:37 PM  15 years agoPost 6
ed vega

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nyc, queens

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yea, I agree - without a consecutive pattern of failures on the same part item theres no witch hunt. one out of every thousand doesn't really draw attention enough to constitute a problem . get a new head for free and move on .

as I remember it, it happened on two occasions with both the first xcell60 heads and a tskmystar60 head. I owned a several xcell60's when they first came out. had one head exploded in mid flight, wrote to ma and sugguested that they produce a metal head and hub . they replied that they never encountered this before and see no reason for a metal head. well that was in the early 80's, now they have a metal head too. wonder why ?

on a ama sanction fields then file a claim. and let the insurance people and lawyers do the rest. when you fly at a non sanctioned ama field it can be risky cause you could be at fault , if the product is defective - you get a replacement, if there is property or people being hurt - how do you file a claim with ama if your flying at a public park or recreation ground thats not covered.

lawsuits is bad for everyone. and if you go after the manufacturer well his lawyers are working hard for their best interests. he'd rather replace the broken items.

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04-23-2002 08:53 PM  15 years agoPost 7
Augusto

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US

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I don't think Mike is calling for a lawsuit.
I think what he's saying is that since the defect is a manufacturer's originated defect they should provide a replacement flybar for free.

The unit I saw explode now uses the same flybar that Curtis is using. I believe that JR should just send them to customers to prevent it from happening.

What Mike is saying is that in America when a potential dangerous situation is discovered the manufacturer usually puts out a recall where they replace the defective parts similar to what the car manufacturers do when they find a potentially hazardous defect.

Doing so minimizes JR liability and exposure to a lawsuit in a case where the defect is proven to cause a serious injury or death.

As I understand it from a legal point of view any person that registers for warranty should receive a letter with the recall. If a person didn’t register then JR's responsibility is minimized because they had no way to contact the original purchaser.

If I was JR or any manufacturer I would make it a must to make sure this was complied with.

One thing that Asian companies just don't understand is that we in America far from seeing a recall as an embarrassing action where a company loses face we look at it as a responsible action from a company and makes us trust the company even more for accepting and correcting errors.

I wish we could somehow get that fact into their brains. That would make them make less marketing mistakes and us trust their products more.

Augusto

Avant Aurora Ultimate

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04-23-2002 09:21 PM  15 years agoPost 8
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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Augusto;
I believe the original name of this thread has been changed. If I'm not losing my mind, the original title said something like "join the lawsuit". The point I was trying to make is the danger of running the manufacturers out of the business, if people start sueing for every problem. I would agree that the manufacturers have some responsibility to resolve a problem when it occurs, especially a safety related problem such as this.
As far as the American light plane manufacturers, maybe they've all jumped back in, but there was a time when no American light planes of any make were being produced, largely because of liability concerns. Thanks. Steve.

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04-23-2002 09:28 PM  15 years agoPost 9
Zxyxx

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Anaheim

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I've seen this happen. It happened to Mark Ryder. Luckily, he was just in a 2-3 foot hover. He had just completed an auto and was going up for another. JR should do something about this.

Everyone blasted TT over the R60 V1. They fixed the problems and provided the parts free of charge.

I don't want to treat my heli with kid gloves because I'm worried that the flybar may break in violent manuevers. And I don't want to have to replace a flybar at regular intervals. We don't do that with mainshaft, spindles, boom, blade grips, etc.

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04-23-2002 10:17 PM  15 years agoPost 10
Secret Squirrel

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New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

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DavidH, I think you're right.
My Vigor came from JR Japan but we had some differences from the ones you get. We only got one fly bar and set of paddles as opposed to your two etc.
I think the carbon side frames are not manufacturered by JR but are made by someone else and then packed up at JR. That's just the impression I get talking to the NZ JR dealer here.

Does anyone know who makes replacement CS Carbon frames? Mr Carbon?

Si

-------------
Simon Lockington

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04-23-2002 11:00 PM  15 years agoPost 11
DrScoles

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Redmond WA

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Steve,

My point was more to the tune of: This hobby needs to police itself to avoid lawsuits... If a careless manufacturer, and I do think it is careless to let this go on without being addressed, lets this happen and someone gets hurt, then everyone will suffer. They'll raise kit prices to pay the lawyers, we'll get kicked out of fields because the powers that be will have bonified proof that these things are dangerous... And manufacturers might invest more money in developing a new r/c car instead of the machine with the 5' whirling carbon fibre disk... Some places could outlaw them all together! We've seen how ridiculous people can be...get a stay at home Mom who doesn't want little Billy to get killed by the evil helicopter because she saw it on the evening news...she goes to city council and they get'em banned...

It doesn't matter whether or not I have seen this happen or not. I know two people who have had it happen and horizon knows it is happening.

The sceadu's were blowing main gears...a potentially dangerous situation. Jeff Green fixed the problem right away... So yes, I would make the same accusation about Hirobo. I brought it up with Jeff Green. A problem was brought to their attention, and they addressed it properly. I don't get paid by Hirobo, I get a small break on parts and I get to wait twice as long to have them shipped to me! I usually end up ordering from Ricks!

So, I do not feel that I, "am being low" I think I'm bringing up a serious topic that needs to be addressed. This is a hobby, we need to keep it a safe hobby. Wouldn't be lots of fun if someone got killed by a desgin flaw...we have enough trouble with dumb thumbs and poor maintenance...


Mike

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04-24-2002 12:40 AM  15 years agoPost 12
SemiArticulate

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On Location

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I agree with DrScoles in that I don't think this is an "asian" problem. As he pointed out, Hirobo made changes to the Sceadu and did so very publicly. TT made changes to their product to the extent of naming it V2. JR is too pricey to have a flaw like this. If I hear of the slightest hint of problem with one of my helis and I am on the phone to the heli store to get the fix. Depending on the severity of the report, it would be grounded until fixed. I did that with my Freya in regards to the auto hub despite having heard very few reports and those were from 90 class that had been in a crash before. But these 'knee jerk' reactions keep me flying.

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04-24-2002 01:29 AM  15 years agoPost 13
JDANJ

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Orange County, CA

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Term

If I'm not mistaken this is a Class One Error of Comission

Any Law buffs care to comment? Laylia?

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04-24-2002 06:29 AM  15 years agoPost 14
heli-nut50

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Merlin, ON, Canada

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I have compared the vigor head assy. and the ergo 60 head assy. and by the look of it they are pretty close to the same other than a few small changes.

So I want to now exactly what is failing on the vigor head that seems to work just fine on the ergo.

The fly bar seesaw spindle is dame close to the same. The bearings that hold the spindle in the rotor head have screws holding them in were as the ergo 60's are pressed in. Dampners are different ie harder. Mixing ratios are a little different but needed for 3D. But the ergo can be set up for 3D.

Basiclly why is it only on the vigor. What broke? All of these replys have been very unclear as to what is the problem. Something about the flybar braking. How? Where? What is the head speed when this happens?

Maybe that head speed being set at 2500 rpm to do that crazy 3D stuff is just tooooo much stress. I do contest flying and my head speed for aerobatics is set anywhere from 1800 to 1900. When you spin it up too much you end up with other problems, other than things flying apart.

I use to fly with a guy and he liked is head screaming all the time. It was !@$%ing scary. I tached his machine one day and he was spinning at 2300rpm. After that day whenever he came up to the flight line everyone landed and he could not figure out why!!! All of us heli guys told him that it was a little exsessive. But he did not hear us and one day just hovering a grip let go!!! No one was hurt but we never did find all the bits. After that day he flew 1700rpm. By the way the machine that blew up was an X-cell. But it was not the MACHINE it was the PILOT.

Fly Hard!

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04-24-2002 06:46 AM  15 years agoPost 15
Buzzin Brian

rrProfessor

College Station, Texas

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Interesting debate for sure, but I saw this happen first hand this last weekend at a FunFly. Luckily the pilot (a JR rep) at the helm got the bird down on its skids (he had skills). But it does concern me, becouse I own a Vigor. And would like to see this problem resolved.

It would be great if some big shot was checking the sites, and could advise us on their solution, or atleast their thoughts on this type of situation. Anyone else agree?

Build it, fly it, crash it. Repeat as often as needed.

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04-24-2002 06:49 AM  15 years agoPost 16
wiljam

rrApprentice

Santa Paula, California

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Ha Stewert

When ever I hear of the Super Viking I start to get ill. I had 2 cockpit fires in those hunks of junks.....lol

The only good thing that scumbag Clinton did, The Aviation Enhancment Act, is why cessna and piper are making light singles and twins again even though they are astronomicly over priced.

Let me put on my nomex suit.

Will

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04-24-2002 08:53 AM  15 years agoPost 17
xcelllogo

rrApprentice

San Diego

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Mike is right,,, When the Vigor came out it had the swash plate problem and the RF interference.. The Vigor is still having problems as far as I can tell. From my point of view Horizon (JR), is close to if not the biggest distributor in the US. If a product has such a problem it needs to be addresses as it happens not wait until the end customer finds it and wrecks it and has to buy parts or worse a new kit. The Freya and Fury (and many others) were tested hard before it was released and they fixed all the problems that came up if any. I don't like how TT and JR have made the end consumer the testers. If a ship has Curtis Youngblood’s name on it then it should have been tested as he flies it not ,( oh krap we have to fix this quick because it is a new product that CY hasn't tested yet and it failed, ie swashplate.) He should test the out of the box version with all the parts that we get not a design on paper. I seem to hear that CY has some new design head he is working on, or a new tail gear box. He needs to fly the C.S so he can test it for any problems. I am NOT blasting CY because he flies for JRPRO Japan not Horizon. (He told me this him self) IMO IMO IMO.......


Adam

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04-24-2002 01:13 PM  15 years agoPost 18
Doug

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Port Saint Luice Florida....

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I think heli-nut50 hit it. "we" are out flying the design.

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04-24-2002 06:57 PM  15 years agoPost 19
ed vega

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nyc, queens

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if you start to look at the flaws on any given part. chances are the part has been improved on and in short order a newer design becomes deployed as standard equip.

the previous part # soon enough becomes obsolete and irrelevant - no longer warrants attention or at least minimal attention due to upgraded part numbers and design enhancements. focusing on the newer product is of the interest , and then again it is a wild goose chase at the least when you try to pin it down ..

some parts have manufacturing stability other parts do not. the hobby is always evolving ..

what parts of the heli get overhauled more frequently than other parts ?

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